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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    The thing you really got to look at, though, is that even with so and so million more subscribers or whatever, you gotta look at how many were raiding. I doubt at it's peak, more than 1 million players -total-, or even close, killed a single raid boss in TBC. With WOTLK, it's probably a little higher, but, traditionally, not many people raid/step foot in raids. So to think that has that much of a large impact on subscriber numbers good or bad is a bit silly.

    Hell, that's why LFR was made. To try and get more people into those instances that barely anyone was seeing/even really wanted to see.
    But if people are happy with the game that way, it doesn't really matter if they are raiding or not. Desiring others is fun too, why do you think streams are so popular? Personally I used to spend hours looking at players who were a part of the elite, simply because it amazed me what they had accomplished. Now I don't give a fuck about anyone else, unless I'm playing with them.
    ^This is one of many reasons for harder raids being better. There will be people to look up to who make you strive to become a better player yourself. You don't really progress skill-wise if you just get everything nerfed each time you're incapable of doing it whatever it is your doing.

    Of course I get players who don't have the time to play much, but THAT is why LFR is there. To let players who don't have much time, see content which they otherwise wouldn't have time to see. You can't just nerf the game because players want good gear but don't want to meet the games'/gears' requirements as to learning tactics, doing mechanics correctly, learning your class etc. This you will have to put effort into getting.

    Personally I would like to have a raiding system much like the one there was in TBC, but with LFR implemented. So that you can see all content and get a taste of what raiding is like, but to fight the real fights and get the better gear, you will have to put effort into playing, learning and understanding. I mean it's not that hard to prepair for something that happens more of the less same way each time (a boss fight).

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    But if people are happy with the game that way, it doesn't really matter if they are raiding or not.
    I know a lot of people who didn't raid. They mostly stopped playing. This should not be surprising; raiding is the PvE end game. Without that, the game is truncated and ultimately unsatisfying.

    We know the game has seen great churn, with blue statements indicating there are many more ex-players than current players. In BC, it's likely that a large (and unsustainable) influx of new customers masked this churn. That doesn't mean BC's content was better, it just meant the game was burning through potential customers who were going to be unsatisfied by its end game and drift away again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That doesn't mean BC's content was better, it just meant the game was burning through potential customers who were going to be unsatisfied by its end game and drift away again...
    ...two years later when they removed all sorts of special snowflake effects, which people in general love. Even in the real life, it's kinda cool to stand out in a good way, ain't it?

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Of course we can say that. Morhaime himself said most of the net loss in Q3 2011 was in China, and we know for a fact that China got Cataclysm on July 12, 2011.

    What exactly are we supposed to interpret differently here?
    well yeah maybe, maybe not lol, however, was it because of difficulty or cata content not being fun for any other reasons?. maybe it doesn't have anything to do with raids, another extreme opinion would be maybe game got too polished and too good so it got boring! Or many other possible issues in between these lines. I'm saying its a very very complex issue even multi-bilion dollar company like Blizzard can't find out whats exactly going on.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  5. #1065
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    But if people are happy with the game that way, it doesn't really matter if they are raiding or not. Desiring others is fun too, why do you think streams are so popular? Personally I used to spend hours looking at players who were a part of the elite, simply because it amazed me what they had accomplished. Now I don't give a fuck about anyone else, unless I'm playing with them.
    ^This is one of many reasons for harder raids being better. There will be people to look up to who make you strive to become a better player yourself. You don't really progress skill-wise if you just get everything nerfed each time you're incapable of doing it whatever it is your doing.

    Of course I get players who don't have the time to play much, but THAT is why LFR is there. To let players who don't have much time, see content which they otherwise wouldn't have time to see. You can't just nerf the game because players want good gear but don't want to meet the games'/gears' requirements as to learning tactics, doing mechanics correctly, learning your class etc. This you will have to put effort into getting.

    Personally I would like to have a raiding system much like the one there was in TBC, but with LFR implemented. So that you can see all content and get a taste of what raiding is like, but to fight the real fights and get the better gear, you will have to put effort into playing, learning and understanding. I mean it's not that hard to prepair for something that happens more of the less same way each time (a boss fight).
    I've always had the theory that, back then, people didn't know what they were missing. So they didn't care. Most people probably didn't really know about raiding and all that. Cut to WOTLK, and a lot of people start learning exactly about all this stuff they're paying for that they can't do. Then cut to Cata, and it becomes painfully evident, when there's seriously a total lack of near about ANY PVE content at the end game outside of heroics, until the LFR patch. Now, everything has a LFR mode.

    Lack of things to do, to me, always seemed to be the biggest problems. In BC, if you didn't raid, you had things to do. In WOTLK, if you didn't raid, you had things to do, in Cata, if you didn't raid, you were pretty much dead weight in the game, and it was either quit, or PVP. Most of Blizzard's decisions, eerily, seemed aimed at pleasing raiders. They cut down on the "journey" to level cap, to make it easier to get characters raid-capable, which is a big problem that is a big part of what lead to this. The fact that it took them SEVEN YEARS to make LFR is kind of insane. No other company would tow the line while trying to go over and beyond to appease a tiny minority is crazy.

    The whole game, to me, seems at conflict with what the general masses want from it, what the hardcore want from it, and want Blizzard wants the people to want from it, and what the game actually is, with almost all parties having some sort of tunnel vision about stuff, naming, and the like.

    I think the game is in a good place right now, it offers a lot of content for everyone. (It sure as hell didn't in Cata) But I do agree with others that the naming for "Normal" modes is a bit off the mark, considering whom they're meant to be aimed at, and the amount of platitudes raiders get is a bit absurd. (Like, the staggered LFR release. Why are they doing things like that to make a minority happy? It's not going to encourage more people to raid. It's going to just keep bored people bored longer.)

  6. #1066
    What should normal raids then be called? Easy? Since LFR is easy and the only "hard" thing, that players worse than average can't adapt to, about normal encounters atm are the rage timers which are getting nerfed.
    LFR - Easy (but the players who are having a hard time even switching target are getting carried)
    Normal - Normal (and it really is. It's normal to put a little effort into downing new content).
    Heroic - Heroic (but repitition of something you've basically done before)

  7. #1067
    This game is to easy... This game is to hard... Buff my class.. Nerf that other guy, his class is over powered! People will never be happy...

  8. #1068
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butbearform View Post
    People will never be happy...
    ...because the game isn't perfect and will always require improving.
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  9. #1069
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    While this is true, the fact still remains that during some of the hardest raids (end tbc) 2,5 million more people started playing wow, and subscribed. And throughout WotLK addionationally 1 million subscribers, until cata.
    See my post in this very thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20346012

    First of all, there were already, shockingly enough, casual players in BC. In fact, most of them never even set foot past Karazhan. The difference is, they had access to almost NO content for them. Basically, what did they have? 5-mans (and heroics once the sunwell patch gave them a bit of gear), dailies and PVP. Metaphysical question: what they were paying the sub for? Answer is: not much. On the other hand, where did that money go? To finance raids that almost no one, percentage-wise, would enter. Imagine that we have a country where the taxes from 95+% of the population are almost exclusively used to build palaces for the remaining 5%. This would strike a lot of people wrong on so many levels. Actually, such countries existed (e.g. some quite recent dictatorships in Africa), and no one in his right mind would call it as the right state of things.

    Now, a lot of people who are not into VG economics ask me at this point: "But Tom, vanilla and BC were gaining subs, why?". The answer is, because a lot of casual players didn't reach the limits of their game in BC and/or didn't arrive at a state of internal saturation. Simply speaking, the casual players were either leveling (and leveling took a long time back then, especially if you were inexperienced) or didn't arrive at a state of boredom within the game. But they found the game new (because it was) and fascinating (especially Outland - which is still my favorite continent so far, albeit tied with Pandaria). Which is why the model worked at some point. Now, the above is missing a critical piece of information: the sub churn rate. Basically, the fact that the game gained 1M subs is not the only thing we need to know. Because it can mean two very different situations: for example gaining 1.1M subs and losing 0.1M versus gaining 2M and losing 1M. The net gain is the same, but in the latter situation, the customers are leaving much more rapidly, which is not a healthy situation, because the target market is, after all, finite so eventually there will be no "new blood" to compensate for the churn.

    We don't have that information, only Blizzard does. Now, at this point we enter the guesswork domain, but based on what the developers said and my experience of high-tech sector, I think my guesses are quite accurate. I assume that, on one hand, by end-BC the churn was increasing, and dangerously so. The model was going to explode and was no longer defensible (not that it was morally defensible before). Basically, they realized that most players were just seeing the first trash packs of Kara (to paraphrase a wow dev) and that something had to be done to make content (into which a lot of money was poured) more evenly spread along the player-base. This process started in LK and finished more or less only with 4.3 and 5.0.

    On the other hand, it is pretty safe to assume that Blizzard devs were kicked in the booty by their finance controllers at Sunwell stage for pouring millions into a raid no one ever saw (<1% of pop iirc). So yeah, the devs got smacked on the head (and rightfully so) which made them rethink their content philosophy a bit. It wasn't immediate (the first tier of LK is questionable in that respect) but they eventually got it right by using a multi-tiered difficulty system. Unfortunately, there was the early Cata retardation to mess things up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    WotLK was hard
    WOTLK wasn't hard, 5-mans were tuned reasonably well and normal raids were puggable towards the end. Compared to both BC and Cata, it was tuned way better.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    See my post in this very thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20346012




    WOTLK wasn't hard, 5-mans were tuned reasonably well and normal raids were puggable towards the end. Compared to both BC and Cata, it was tuned way better.
    LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

    But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).

  11. #1071
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

    But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).
    If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

    That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.

    Aside from obtuse tactics, the current "normal" raids require excellent performance + gems/chants/reforging to get anywhere at all.

    Either the playerbase hasn't been shown how to play or create a character properly (bad design) or the raids are overtuned for the playerbases real skill level (bad design) either way, the current raid system is bad design.
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  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

    That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.

    Aside from obtuse tactics, the current "normal" raids require excellent performance + gems/chants/reforging to get anywhere at all.

    Either the playerbase hasn't been shown how to play or create a character properly (bad design) or the raids are overtuned for the playerbases real skill level (bad design) either way, the current raid system is bad design.
    lol........

    Infracted: Please post constructively.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-03-02 at 11:27 PM.

  13. #1073
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Then normal mode needs to be renamed "hard mode" because unless it's doable by the norm it's not normal, is it.
    I agree. My guild lost 3 good raiders at the end of Cata (they stopped playing wow) and now the normals are too hard for us. And LFR is not really a solution and i'm sorry to see that Blizzard sees it like the one you quoted... we don't balance because if it's too hard then do LFR.
    But right now when it comes to raiding it's like a videogame where the only difficulty options are supereasy, hard and superhard.
    And i guess we are not the only ones considering how many guilds seem to be stuck on Elegon or Garalon normal.

    L2P only gets you that far, in the end some of our players are just not good enough (and strangely they apparently were good enough to do all raids in Wrath and Cata while they were current) and since the horde side on my realm is dying recruiting is not really a possibility.

    So i kinda hate LFR for that, it serves as a scapegoat for Blizzard.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

    That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.
    I have seen high population servers with strong PuG communities that was doing 4-5 bosses in vaults before HoF was released. The first week there was PuGs that downed three bosses. MSV was more mechanics oriented until the last two bosses. The third boss required 40k DPS while experienced raiders was already pulling 50k DPS. Then you have Terrace which mechanically is among the easiest raid with PuGs even doing the elite mode and is more about performance with the last boss being almost exclusively a performance test which is understandable for an end boss like the T11 bosses was like.

    The performance tuning is going to be more forgiving next tier for normal mode. Players will still have to dodge fire though and I like that. Mechanics should mean something or otherwise why have them at all.

    I see gems, enchants, and reforging as common practice when it comes to normal modes. Even in WotLK it was not uncommon to see players get things enchanted and gemmed during a raid or a player just not using a new item because they know it will not be better without the enchants and gems. A lot of players do flask as well. If they use pots I have no clue. I really cannot fathom not doing these things in normal mode unless I am doing a raid that is farmed or old.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

    But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

    But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).
    Most of the posters I saw complaining about Cata raiding being hard did not even clear ICC and I even spotted those who did not clear Naxx with a lot of 8-10 bosses downed. Frankly WotLK raiding was too hard for them as well. These players even forgot about the one shot mechanics in WotLK launch heroics and the multitude of complaints about multi hour long heroic runs. Obviously most of these posters in WotLK was laughed at because we came from BC where most of the mechanics was nothing new to a large portion of the player base and was not cry babies that rage quiet after a wipe.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-03-02 at 11:27 PM.

  15. #1075
    Raiding these days is much more enjoyable from a gamer's perspective due to encounters being harder mechanics-wise and dpsrequirements being a real thing without the dps being limited by your tank's aggro, therefor eliminating the importance of a dps all together.
    As a wow-community-social-gamer however Vanilla might have been better since you required to group up from the start (levelling through elite quests/dungeons/farming gear/...) all without the current LF-tools.
    Vanilla fights weren't as much fun as the bosses from these days, sure they somehow might've felt more epic cause you couldn't do them on LFR, but that's why we currently have Ra-den for example, I wish they'd add a boss like this every raidcontent-patch.

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

    That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.

    Aside from obtuse tactics, the current "normal" raids require excellent performance + gems/chants/reforging to get anywhere at all.

    Either the playerbase hasn't been shown how to play or create a character properly (bad design) or the raids are overtuned for the playerbases real skill level (bad design) either way, the current raid system is bad design.
    Sry but the content for people who do not gem, enchant, reforge and stand in the fire half the time is LFR.

    Average player is not entitled to succed in normal mode just because he pays 13$ a month.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 02:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorondil View Post
    Raiding these days is much more enjoyable from a gamer's perspective due to encounters being harder mechanics-wise and dpsrequirements being a real thing without the dps being limited by your tank's aggro, therefor eliminating the importance of a dps all together.
    As a wow-community-social-gamer however Vanilla might have been better since you required to group up from the start (levelling through elite quests/dungeons/farming gear/...) all without the current LF-tools.
    Vanilla fights weren't as much fun as the bosses from these days, sure they somehow might've felt more epic cause you couldn't do them on LFR, but that's why we currently have Ra-den for example, I wish they'd add a boss like this every raidcontent-patch.
    Yes from a social perspective vanilla till wrath was simply better. You had to be social to be able to see the end game content. Now a days because of convenience I do not have to socialise at all to see it. But because that I do not have to socialise, I end up not socialising at all, leading to the concequens that WoW ends up being a single player game and not an mmo.

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