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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Not even close. A close analogy would be the gold medal winner being upset that the guy who finished 5th got a gold medal, and the guy who finished sixth got a gold medal, and the guy who face planted at the starting line tripped over the starting blocks and broke his anckle never finishing the run got a gold medal.
    And yet, the person who won, if they actually cared about what they had achieved, would be satisfied knowing they finished the race with the fastest time.

    Baubles don't add to or detract from what is important in competition - that of having done your best and being proud of what you have done. What other people do or get ultimately has nothing to do with you unless you are unsatisfied by achievement itself and need adulation along with it.

  2. #742
    The big issue with WoW is, that it never bothered to train it's playerbase for what it threw at them. If you quest right now, you will never be challenged. It's all very streamlined and a breeze. You will not get knocked down, have to get back up and challenge it again head-on with a different tactic. The only reason a lot of the Classic playerbase, as well as a good chunk of the TBC community experience WoW as "too easy" is that this factor has been removed. Before there was a lot of ways to fail at the game, this has been massively reduced. Obviously there are other factors as well, like new enchant systems, gems, talent revamps, class revamps (Paladin Pre-2.0 anyone?) and how the gear scales each expansion.

    But the major factor is: If you do not teach a player the game, they will not be able to handle what is thrown at them. The community took this over from Blizzard with Addons and Guides years ago. And now the old players (or those that informed themselves a lot) feel the game is too easy, the new players still think it is too hard and Blizzard has to find a impossible middle ground due to their failure to do the most basic thing of any game ever made.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Not even close. A close analogy would be the gold medal winner being upset that the guy who finished 5th got a gold medal, and the guy who finished sixth got a gold medal, and the guy who face planted at the starting line tripped over the starting blocks and broke his anckle never finishing the run got a gold medal.
    You do realise that based on your progress you are that guy that never finished the race, right?!? Perhaps instead of spending your time insulting and declaring yourself superior to those who are not interested in running the race, oh and not to forget, blaming your inability to complete the race on others you should concentrate on enjoying the activity rather than the actual race.

  4. #744
    Bloodsail Admiral Zaxio's Avatar
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    Well Vanilla bosses arent more harder than current ones like one dude says there we was 40 ppl + much less gear(we raid naxx with tr1 and 2 parts there was very few ppl who get full tr2 and AQ sets and all tr3 goes to tanks and healers first) and imbalanced classes and now ppl have much more gear than need to defeat the encounter.Also endbosses was too buggy for big period of time which was unbreakable wall
    Now encounter can be much more easy because of specific grouping of classes in 10 man groups where also chance to made a mistake is 2 and half more less than in 25 and 4 times less than in Old 40 mans.

  5. #745
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    New content goes down so fast nowadays because:
    1) The top-end raiding scene has evolved to a higher plateau of average skill and analytical prowess
    2) The amount of time/tries top-and guilds put in per day is much larger than in days past

    Pushing the focus of endgame from raid prep (attunements, consumable farming, 5man farming) to actual raiding (LFR/N/HC) seems to be mostly a good thing for the game as a whole.** This gets more people to the actual meat of the endgame instead of having to languish in 5man / solo content ad infinitum.


    (** Not including grinding dailies for lesser charms / VP since I'm looking at the situation from the PoV of a fresh, casual raider not in a hurry to clear the content.)
    Last edited by Nakkí; 2013-02-26 at 09:55 AM.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkí View Post
    New content goes down so fast nowadays because:
    1) The top-end raiding scene has evolved to a higher plateau of average skill and analytical prowess
    2) The amount of time/tries top-and guilds put in per day is much larger than in days past

    Pushing the focus of endgame effort from raid prep to actual raiding seems to be a good thing.
    This gets more interested people to the actual juicy stuff (playing raid encounters) instead of having to languish in 5man / solo content ad infinitum.
    I am not sure forcing people into raiding is such a good idea, the number of guilds clearing current content suggests that people are simply not interested in organised raid encounters.

  7. #747
    Mechagnome
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    WoW offers and needs both easy and hard content.

    Newcomers have an easy time doing questing, dungeons (which are a stepping stone into beginner raiding as well), LFR, farming, whatever.
    Experienced players have a challenging time with HC Raids, Challenge Modes, PvP, soloing old content, whatever.

    And furthermore, experienced players also can "chill out" and do some fun stuff on the side, like pet battles or farming or playing the AH or whatever.

    That's how it is currently in the game, and that's how it makes the most sense actually. Only when you please all groups without exceptions, you'll have the healthy game with ~10 mio. players that we have.

    There's just one thing that cannot really be solved, and that is (in PvE) the disparity between top-end raiding guilds and the rest. The top-end guilds also want their challenge, but when Blizzard would design content that is challenging for them, it will become impossible for the rest. So they have to strike a balance.
    Most of the challenge the top-end guilds have is from killing the bosses as fast as possible, which automatically means being highly undergeared still. Once they all have ~500 gear like the majority of the HC raiding guilds do have now, they will have no problems at all blazing through the content and having 16/16 HC on farm, while us normal HC raiders still struggle with some bosses.
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2013-02-26 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #748
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not sure forcing people into raiding is such a good idea, the number of guilds clearing current content suggests that people are simply not interested in organised raid encounters.
    While i would agree that forced content is not a good thing, I'd be interested in hearing your view on how/why WoW in it's present state forces players to raid in any way, shape or form? Personally feel like there's more to do for the solo player than ever before.

    My point - which I might have been fuzzy on - was that it's now more viable for a curious player to try out raiding than previously. You know, just to see if they like the activity before committing to it.
    Last edited by Nakkí; 2013-02-26 at 10:29 AM.

  9. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Blizzard got greedy, decided to remove real progression from the game in a bid to attract a more casual player?
    This is so silly and wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. You must be a real expert in economy and business (and yes this is sarcasm).

    First of all, there were already, shockingly enough, casual players in BC. In fact, most of them never even set foot past Karazhan. The difference is, they had access to almost NO content for them. Basically, what did they have? 5-mans (and heroics once the sunwell patch gave them a bit of gear), dailies and PVP. Metaphysical question: what they were paying the sub for? Answer is: not much. On the other hand, where did that money go? To finance raids that almost no one, percentage-wise, would enter. Imagine that we have a country where the taxes from 95+% of the population are almost exclusively used to build palaces for the remaining 5%. This would strike a lot of people wrong on so many levels. Actually, such countries existed (e.g. some quite recent dictatorships in Africa), and no one in his right mind would call it as the right state of things.

    Now, a lot of people who are not into VG economics ask me at this point: "But Tom, vanilla and BC were gaining subs, why?". The answer is, because a lot of casual players didn't reach the limits of their game in BC and/or didn't arrive at a state of internal saturation. Simply speaking, the casual players were either leveling (and leveling took a long time back then, especially if you were inexperienced) or didn't arrive at a state of boredom within the game. But they found the game new (because it was) and fascinating (especially Outland - which is still my favorite continent so far, albeit tied with Pandaria). Which is why the model worked at some point. Now, the above is missing a critical piece of information: the sub churn rate. Basically, the fact that the game gained 1M subs is not the only thing we need to know. Because it can mean two very different situations: for example gaining 1.1M subs and losing 0.1M versus gaining 2M and losing 1M. The net gain is the same, but in the latter situation, the customers are leaving much more rapidly, which is not a healthy situation, because the target market is, after all, finite so eventually there will be no "new blood" to compensate for the churn.

    We don't have that information, only Blizzard does. Now, at this point we enter the guesswork domain, but based on what the developers said and my experience of high-tech sector, I think my guesses are quite accurate. I assume that, on one hand, by end-BC the churn was increasing, and dangerously so. The model was going to explode and was no longer defensible (not that it was morally defensible before). Basically, they realized that most players were just seeing the first trash packs of Kara (to paraphrase a wow dev) and that something had to be done to make content (into which a lot of money was poured) more evenly spread along the player-base. This process started in LK and finished more or less only with 4.3 and 5.0.

    On the other hand, it is pretty safe to assume that Blizzard devs were kicked in the booty by their finance controllers at Sunwell stage for pouring millions into a raid no one ever saw (<1% of pop iirc). So yeah, the devs got smacked on the head (and rightfully so) which made them rethink their content philosophy a bit. It wasn't immediate (the first tier of LK is questionable in that respect) but they eventually got it right by using a multi-tiered difficulty system. Unfortunately, there was the early Cata retardation to mess things up.

    By the way, to all people who repeat the "greedy" mantra: calculate the inflation rate (what is that? ) from 2004 to 2013 for your country and calculate how much would your $15 sub would cost if Blizzard was just keeping up with inflation to calculate it (after all, your landlord does so). Yet they didn't. Draw your own conclusions.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  10. #750
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    There's just one thing that cannot really be solved, and that is (in PvE) the disparity between top-end raiding guilds and the rest.
    This might be due in part to the natural, "upwards" flow of talent in the raiding scene. The best, most progression-oriented players in guilds seem to tend to eventually move on to guilds more suited to their own ambitions if the disparity between their own perceived "level" and that of their guild has grown too wide. This in no way applies to every individual or guild but I think the trend is obvious enough to point out.

    The end result of this concentration of valued players is that the disparity between top-end and the rest has grown to its present state.
    Last edited by Nakkí; 2013-02-26 at 10:14 AM.

  11. #751
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkí View Post
    This might be due in part to the natural, "upwards" flow of talent in the raiding scene. The best, most progression-oriented players in guilds seem to tend to eventually move on to guilds more suited to their own ambitions if the disparity between their own perceived "level" and that of their guild has grown too wide. This in no way applies to every individual or guild but I think the trend is obvious enough to point out.

    The end result of this concentration of valued players is that the disparity between top-end and the rest has grown to its present state.
    The fact that the best ditch people not at their skill level also exlains why they call the game easy.

    Johnny Awesome leaves behind everyone who doesn't measure up - and forgets about them completely. Johnny forgets that the people who stood in fire are still playing the game, and still standing in fire (and now don't have Johnny's help in beating the encounters because he's walked out and left them) all Johnny knows is that know he's found people who are as skilled as he is, the content just rolls over.

    And if he did it, everyone must be able to, right?

    You see it on the forums all the time. The solution to encounter difficulty is to kick your raid to the curb and find a better one. You even see it in the pvp players who KNOW that there can only be a set percentage of people at each rank. "Gladiator is ez, lol usuck" etc

    What actually happens is that the top tier players get together and find the content easy, and everyone they left behind now finds it harder. When the disparity is too wide, blizzard have to step in and adjust the game so that the discarded can still play (they need the sub money) and then the very good players are up in arms at the changes because after all the game is far too easy.

    The other major error I see is that people completely and utterly forget that wow is a game, not an objective test. The purpose of wow is to entertain it's audience. The actual audience of real people who "aren't very good" at playing the game, not some theoretical audience of perfect players who can play 24/7 to progress.

    Based on the current numbers of clears and the availability of pugs and so on, wow is already far too hard for the people who actually play it. Content tuned for it's real audience is the right way to go. Ignore the extremes (the very good and the very bad.)
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  12. #752
    Hardmode raiding doesnt represent an overview of an expansions difficulty. A few points to ponder:

    1) Vanilla was more difficult because there was no Bosskillers videos..no EJ sites where you could see your optimal rotation and gear, and trying to co-ordinate 40 people was insane
    2) Cata heroics needed to be dumbed down because people got used to "lawlfacerolltoepics" in Wrath heroics and couldnt handle the difficulty and got frustrated...because you start flaming and calling me elitist, honestly think about when in Wrath you needed ANY cc in heroics
    3) Bosses may seem more complex, but its all just (in general) variations of dont stand in shit
    4) TBC bosses were FAR more demanding and much more of a timesink to raid then it is now and were MUCH more highly tuned and "flavor class of the tier" dependant..see:Brutallus, if you didnt have at least 3 shamans, preferably 5, you were very unlikely to kill him, and there was only 2 real mechanics for any 1 person to deal with
    5) TBC bosses had a more linear scale of difficulty in general, as opposed to the seeming random difficulty values placed on current raid content...

    my 2 cents anyways

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The fact that the best ditch people not at their skill level also exlains why they call the game easy.

    Johnny Awesome leaves behind everyone who doesn't measure up - and forgets about them completely. Johnny forgets that the people who stood in fire are still playing the game, and still standing in fire (and now don't have Johnny's help in beating the encounters because he's walked out and left them) all Johnny knows is that know he's found people who are as skilled as he is, the content just rolls over.
    This is quite a interesting factor overall. A lot of the new players, as I said, don't get trained. But back when (<insert Grandpa Xara saying things about uphill, snow, both ways>) we also didn't know jack shit. But those who did trained those who didn't. But since the social aspect has fallen short and you don't make friends in the game anymore (aside from RP Servers, they are still decent for that) it somehow disappeared. I used to help players out back in the day. Tell them about skills, did research for them on specific class items, all that stuff. That just stopped when I stopped meeting new people that I liked and could play with, because all I met were people via LFG that didn't talk, didn't joke, left on a death, etc.

    I was a also very "evil" Raid Leader that drove his group to the limit by making them do hardmode (read: harder rotations on the 4 Horsemen for example) or achievement specific things on a boss. When it worked, they were very happy they had done such a amazing thing together. When it didn't, they'd guess I was doing my thing again and it trained them in the long run to go and read up on tactics so I wouldn't trick them anymore.


    Overall, these things seem to not happen. You don't even need a Raid Leader anymore, since LFR make sit a breeze. I guess I really am getting old here. Or maybe I just don't get this new kind of mindset people seem to have. Everything must be given to them because they pay a sub fee/pay money for buying a game.

  14. #754
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The other major error I see is that people completely and utterly forget that wow is a game, not an objective test. The purpose of wow is to entertain it's audience. The actual audience of real people who "aren't very good" at playing the game, not some theoretical audience of perfect players who can play 24/7 to progress.
    Yes, but some people always strive to be better than others or to achieve more than others. The same in sports - everything started out as just a game, but now it's both a game for those who just play it casually *and* a competition for those who play it competitively/hardcore.

    Based on the current numbers of clears and the availability of pugs and so on, wow is already far too hard for the people who actually play it. Content tuned for it's real audience is the right way to go. Ignore the extremes (the very good and the very bad.)
    The right way is to provide content for everyone - low-end and high-end. Doesn't have to be *much* content - just *something* to do.
    On the low-end we have things like pet battles, questing, dungeons, scenarios.
    On the high-end we have things like HC raid bosses, optional HC only bosses (Ra-den, Sinestra), and Challenge Mode timeruns.
    And PvP can of course be both depending on your rating ambitions - easy on low ratings, tough on high ratings.

  15. #755
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    It depends how hard, but solo questing content should be kind of tricky in a way, that you shouldt always be able to just "roll over", but sometimes stop to think how to pull. So yeah, harder every now and then adds variety and makes game more interesting.

  16. #756
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malenurse View Post
    It depends how hard, but solo questing content should be kind of tricky in a way, that you shouldt always be able to just "roll over", but sometimes stop to think how to pull. So yeah, harder every now and then adds variety and makes game more interesting.
    This is something i can agree with - as long as the tricky parts aren't tough enough to become frustrating bottlenecks to the average player.

    The balance is very fine between challenge and nuisance.

  17. #757
    i feel like dailies in pandaria are an aggravation. they're annoyingly tough, it's not fun at all for me. i like the way the mobs were in wrath, at the argent tournament. judging by how it is on the ptr right now, with a great geared toon... there's no way i'll even set foot on the island thing. this is just becoming a game that isn't for me, and that sucks, cause i've put years into it.

  18. #758
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    Yes, but some people always strive to be better than others or to achieve more than others. The same in sports - everything started out as just a game, but now it's both a game for those who just play it casually *and* a competition for those who play it competitively/hardcore.
    Quite right. millions of people play football. But the rules and design of football dont exclude those millions by default. This shows you can still have a game that everyone (more or less) can play without creating rulesets and designing for the super amazing.

    The right way is to provide content for everyone - low-end and high-end. Doesn't have to be *much* content - just *something* to do.
    On the low-end we have things like pet battles, questing, dungeons, scenarios.
    On the high-end we have things like HC raid bosses, optional HC only bosses (Ra-den, Sinestra), and Challenge Mode timeruns.
    And PvP can of course be both depending on your rating ambitions - easy on low ratings, tough on high ratings.
    I agree. The right way is to first create content for the average and then, as an afterthought, content for the outliers. At least, not if you want to be a mass market phenomenon.

    (the point I was making about pvp was that even though it's completely impossible for all pvpers to be gladiators even if skill was equalised just due to the nature of an ELO system, most pvpers will claim it is and will say all that you need to do is improve.)
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  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I don't quite understand this sentence, sorry.
    Ok, the sentence should be this: "I disagree with this. Queue systems have the neccesity of making the content too much easier than coordinated groups."

    And the point is, a queue system for Normal would be LFR, you cant make a queeu system with the normal difficulty, because people in the raid wont have voice communication nor would be as coordinated as a normal group.

    We dont need a queue for normals, we just need a bette tunning of some particular bosses, mostly in HoF

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 09:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Not even close. A close analogy would be the gold medal winner being upset that the guy who finished 5th got a gold medal, and the guy who finished sixth got a gold medal, and the guy who face planted at the starting line tripped over the starting blocks and broke his anckle never finishing the run got a gold medal.
    No, because people not winning the gold medal (aka not doing heroic raids) are NOT getting the same rewards.

    Normal gear is the silver medal. Its a medal, it has the same exact shape, except it has another collor and material.

    LFR gear is the bronze medal. Its a medal, it has the same exact shape, except it has another collor and material.

    People keep asking that only the gold medal exists. Heroic raids GET BETTER GEAR, MUCH BETTER gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 09:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkí View Post
    New content goes down so fast nowadays because:
    1) The top-end raiding scene has evolved to a higher plateau of average skill and analytical prowess
    2) The amount of time/tries top-and guilds put in per day is much larger than in days past

    Pushing the focus of endgame from raid prep (attunements, consumable farming, 5man farming) to actual raiding (LFR/N/HC) seems to be mostly a good thing for the game as a whole.** This gets more people to the actual meat of the endgame instead of having to languish in 5man / solo content ad infinitum.


    (** Not including grinding dailies for lesser charms / VP since I'm looking at the situation from the PoV of a fresh, casual raider not in a hurry to clear the content.)

    Actually no, new content "goes down so fast" because nowadays people count when top guilds get the boss down and before they counted then THEIR GUILD downed it.

    M'uru, the "guild breaker" in the "hard expansion" that was TBC was killed 3 days after being available, 3 FREAKING DAYS.

    The fact is, content DOES NOT oes down faster now, heroic content is actually harder than ANYTHING in TBC, which is why only 500 guilds killed Sha of Fear Heroic after 5 months and with the Item Upgrade nerfing the content.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-02-26 at 12:23 PM.

  20. #760
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The fact is, content DOES NOT oes down faster now, heroic content is actually harder than ANYTHING in TBC, which is why only 500 guilds killed Sha of Fear Heroic after 5 months and with the Item Upgrade nerfing the content.
    i heartily agree with the difficulty assessment but I thought we were discussing the pace at which the first guilds clear the new heroic content - not so much the pace of the next 500-1000 guilds.

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