Harder Content = Better?

[Deleted]

This might be due in part to the natural, "upwards" flow of talent in the raiding scene. The best, most progression-oriented players in guilds seem to tend to eventually move on to guilds more suited to their own ambitions if the disparity between their own perceived "level" and that of their guild has grown too wide. This in no way applies to every individual or guild but I think the trend is obvious enough to point out.

The end result of this concentration of valued players is that the disparity between top-end and the rest has grown to its present state.

The fact that the best ditch people not at their skill level also exlains why they call the game easy.

Johnny Awesome leaves behind everyone who doesn't measure up - and forgets about them completely. Johnny forgets that the people who stood in fire are still playing the game, and still standing in fire (and now don't have Johnny's help in beating the encounters because he's walked out and left them) all Johnny knows is that know he's found people who are as skilled as he is, the content just rolls over.

And if he did it, everyone must be able to, right?

You see it on the forums all the time. The solution to encounter difficulty is to kick your raid to the curb and find a better one. You even see it in the pvp players who KNOW that there can only be a set percentage of people at each rank. "Gladiator is ez, lol usuck" etc

What actually happens is that the top tier players get together and find the content easy, and everyone they left behind now finds it harder. When the disparity is too wide, blizzard have to step in and adjust the game so that the discarded can still play (they need the sub money) and then the very good players are up in arms at the changes because after all the game is far too easy.

The other major error I see is that people completely and utterly forget that wow is a game, not an objective test. The purpose of wow is to entertain it's audience. The actual audience of real people who "aren't very good" at playing the game, not some theoretical audience of perfect players who can play 24/7 to progress.

Based on the current numbers of clears and the availability of pugs and so on, wow is already far too hard for the people who actually play it. Content tuned for it's real audience is the right way to go. Ignore the extremes (the very good and the very bad.)

[Ehrenpanzer]

Hardmode raiding doesnt represent an overview of an expansions difficulty. A few points to ponder:

1) Vanilla was more difficult because there was no Bosskillers videos..no EJ sites where you could see your optimal rotation and gear, and trying to co-ordinate 40 people was insane
2) Cata heroics needed to be dumbed down because people got used to "lawlfacerolltoepics" in Wrath heroics and couldnt handle the difficulty and got frustrated...because you start flaming and calling me elitist, honestly think about when in Wrath you needed ANY cc in heroics
3) Bosses may seem more complex, but its all just (in general) variations of dont stand in shit
4) TBC bosses were FAR more demanding and much more of a timesink to raid then it is now and were MUCH more highly tuned and "flavor class of the tier" dependant..see:Brutallus, if you didnt have at least 3 shamans, preferably 5, you were very unlikely to kill him, and there was only 2 real mechanics for any 1 person to deal with
5) TBC bosses had a more linear scale of difficulty in general, as opposed to the seeming random difficulty values placed on current raid content...

my 2 cents anyways

[Deleted]

The fact that the best ditch people not at their skill level also exlains why they call the game easy.

Johnny Awesome leaves behind everyone who doesn't measure up - and forgets about them completely. Johnny forgets that the people who stood in fire are still playing the game, and still standing in fire (and now don't have Johnny's help in beating the encounters because he's walked out and left them) all Johnny knows is that know he's found people who are as skilled as he is, the content just rolls over.

This is quite a interesting factor overall. A lot of the new players, as I said, don't get trained. But back when (<insert Grandpa Xara saying things about uphill, snow, both ways>) we also didn't know jack shit. But those who did trained those who didn't. But since the social aspect has fallen short and you don't make friends in the game anymore (aside from RP Servers, they are still decent for that) it somehow disappeared. I used to help players out back in the day. Tell them about skills, did research for them on specific class items, all that stuff. That just stopped when I stopped meeting new people that I liked and could play with, because all I met were people via LFG that didn't talk, didn't joke, left on a death, etc.

I was a also very "evil" Raid Leader that drove his group to the limit by making them do hardmode (read: harder rotations on the 4 Horsemen for example) or achievement specific things on a boss. When it worked, they were very happy they had done such a amazing thing together. When it didn't, they'd guess I was doing my thing again and it trained them in the long run to go and read up on tactics so I wouldn't trick them anymore.


Overall, these things seem to not happen. You don't even need a Raid Leader anymore, since LFR make sit a breeze. I guess I really am getting old here. Or maybe I just don't get this new kind of mindset people seem to have. Everything must be given to them because they pay a sub fee/pay money for buying a game.

[TaurenNinja]

The other major error I see is that people completely and utterly forget that wow is a game, not an objective test. The purpose of wow is to entertain it's audience. The actual audience of real people who "aren't very good" at playing the game, not some theoretical audience of perfect players who can play 24/7 to progress.

Yes, but some people always strive to be better than others or to achieve more than others. The same in sports - everything started out as just a game, but now it's both a game for those who just play it casually *and* a competition for those who play it competitively/hardcore.

Based on the current numbers of clears and the availability of pugs and so on, wow is already far too hard for the people who actually play it. Content tuned for it's real audience is the right way to go. Ignore the extremes (the very good and the very bad.)

The right way is to provide content for everyone - low-end and high-end. Doesn't have to be *much* content - just *something* to do.
On the low-end we have things like pet battles, questing, dungeons, scenarios.
On the high-end we have things like HC raid bosses, optional HC only bosses (Ra-den, Sinestra), and Challenge Mode timeruns.
And PvP can of course be both depending on your rating ambitions - easy on low ratings, tough on high ratings.

[Deleted]

It depends how hard, but solo questing content should be kind of tricky in a way, that you shouldt always be able to just "roll over", but sometimes stop to think how to pull. So yeah, harder every now and then adds variety and makes game more interesting.

[Nakkí]

It depends how hard, but solo questing content should be kind of tricky in a way, that you shouldt always be able to just "roll over", but sometimes stop to think how to pull. So yeah, harder every now and then adds variety and makes game more interesting.

This is something i can agree with - as long as the tricky parts aren't tough enough to become frustrating bottlenecks to the average player.

The balance is very fine between challenge and nuisance.

[derpkitteh]

i feel like dailies in pandaria are an aggravation. they're annoyingly tough, it's not fun at all for me. i like the way the mobs were in wrath, at the argent tournament. judging by how it is on the ptr right now, with a great geared toon... there's no way i'll even set foot on the island thing. this is just becoming a game that isn't for me, and that sucks, cause i've put years into it.

[Deleted]

Yes, but some people always strive to be better than others or to achieve more than others. The same in sports - everything started out as just a game, but now it's both a game for those who just play it casually *and* a competition for those who play it competitively/hardcore.

Quite right. millions of people play football. But the rules and design of football dont exclude those millions by default. This shows you can still have a game that everyone (more or less) can play without creating rulesets and designing for the super amazing.

The right way is to provide content for everyone - low-end and high-end. Doesn't have to be *much* content - just *something* to do.
On the low-end we have things like pet battles, questing, dungeons, scenarios.
On the high-end we have things like HC raid bosses, optional HC only bosses (Ra-den, Sinestra), and Challenge Mode timeruns.
And PvP can of course be both depending on your rating ambitions - easy on low ratings, tough on high ratings.

I agree. The right way is to first create content for the average and then, as an afterthought, content for the outliers. At least, not if you want to be a mass market phenomenon.

(the point I was making about pvp was that even though it's completely impossible for all pvpers to be gladiators even if skill was equalised just due to the nature of an ELO system, most pvpers will claim it is and will say all that you need to do is improve.)

[Crashdummy]

I don't quite understand this sentence, sorry.

Ok, the sentence should be this: "I disagree with this. Queue systems have the neccesity of making the content too much easier than coordinated groups."

And the point is, a queue system for Normal would be LFR, you cant make a queeu system with the normal difficulty, because people in the raid wont have voice communication nor would be as coordinated as a normal group.

We dont need a queue for normals, we just need a bette tunning of some particular bosses, mostly in HoF

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 09:19 AM ----------

Not even close. A close analogy would be the gold medal winner being upset that the guy who finished 5th got a gold medal, and the guy who finished sixth got a gold medal, and the guy who face planted at the starting line tripped over the starting blocks and broke his anckle never finishing the run got a gold medal.

No, because people not winning the gold medal (aka not doing heroic raids) are NOT getting the same rewards.

Normal gear is the silver medal. Its a medal, it has the same exact shape, except it has another collor and material.

LFR gear is the bronze medal. Its a medal, it has the same exact shape, except it has another collor and material.

People keep asking that only the gold medal exists. Heroic raids GET BETTER GEAR, MUCH BETTER gear.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 09:23 AM ----------

New content goes down so fast nowadays because:
1) The top-end raiding scene has evolved to a higher plateau of average skill and analytical prowess
2) The amount of time/tries top-and guilds put in per day is much larger than in days past

Pushing the focus of endgame from raid prep (attunements, consumable farming, 5man farming) to actual raiding (LFR/N/HC) seems to be mostly a good thing for the game as a whole.** This gets more people to the actual meat of the endgame instead of having to languish in 5man / solo content ad infinitum.


(** Not including grinding dailies for lesser charms / VP since I'm looking at the situation from the PoV of a fresh, casual raider not in a hurry to clear the content.)

Actually no, new content "goes down so fast" because nowadays people count when top guilds get the boss down and before they counted then THEIR GUILD downed it.

M'uru, the "guild breaker" in the "hard expansion" that was TBC was killed 3 days after being available, 3 FREAKING DAYS.

The fact is, content DOES NOT oes down faster now, heroic content is actually harder than ANYTHING in TBC, which is why only 500 guilds killed Sha of Fear Heroic after 5 months and with the Item Upgrade nerfing the content.

[Nakkí]

The fact is, content DOES NOT oes down faster now, heroic content is actually harder than ANYTHING in TBC, which is why only 500 guilds killed Sha of Fear Heroic after 5 months and with the Item Upgrade nerfing the content.

i heartily agree with the difficulty assessment but I thought we were discussing the pace at which the first guilds clear the new heroic content - not so much the pace of the next 500-1000 guilds.

[Firebert]

Not even close. A close analogy would be the gold medal winner being upset that the guy who finished 5th got a gold medal, and the guy who finished sixth got a gold medal, and the guy who face planted at the starting line tripped over the starting blocks and broke his anckle never finishing the run got a gold medal.

To be more precise, as there's no Normal achievements, just Heroic achievements for each boss, it would be everyone from second place and lower getting a silver, with the Heroic raiders getting gold.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 12:36 PM ----------

I am not sure forcing people into raiding is such a good idea, the number of guilds clearing current content suggests that people are simply not interested in organised raid encounters.

The only other option is to stop making raids entirely, which is far less likely.

[Osmeric]

The right way is to provide content for everyone - low-end and high-end. Doesn't have to be *much* content - just *something* to do.
On the low-end we have things like pet battles, questing, dungeons, scenarios.
On the high-end we have things like HC raid bosses, optional HC only bosses (Ra-den, Sinestra), and Challenge Mode timeruns.
And PvP can of course be both depending on your rating ambitions - easy on low ratings, tough on high ratings.

That only works if the content for one group doesn't degrade the game experience for the other group.

We certainly heard some vocal hardcores (or wannabes) saying the mere presence of LFR degraded their game experience. Well, that shoe can go on the other foot too: the mere presence of difficult content can degrade the game for the great majority of players who don't want to do it. And since there are many more of these players than there are hardcores, it doesn't take much degradation to make the payoff of that hard content turn out negative for the game designers.

[Firebert]

By the way, to all people who repeat the "greedy" mantra: calculate the inflation rate (what is that? ) from 2004 to 2013 for your country and calculate how much would your $15 sub would cost if Blizzard was just keeping up with inflation to calculate it (after all, your landlord does so).

This can do it for you. $1 in 2004 is now $1.2434, hence the $15 sub fee is now effectively $12.06.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 12:49 PM ----------

Ok, the sentence should be this: "I disagree with this. Queue systems have the necessity of making the content far easier than coordinated groups."

I disagree. If Normal raiders can jump to Heroic, LFR raiders should be able to jump to Normal using the same medium, without the premise that you'll complete the raid.

the point is, a queue system for Normal would be LFR, you cant make a queeu system with the normal difficulty, because people in the raid wont have voice communication nor would be as coordinated as a normal group.

Queued Normal would be identical to unqueued Normal, you can make a queued system for Normal difficulty (see Rated BGs), and voice communication isn't required to raid (see the unloved voice chat feature). There is a premise you're forgetting: players queueing for Normal raids should not expect to clear it, the same what Normal raiders don't expect to one-shot Heroic raids.

We dont need a queue for normals

All queued systems have been a giant success or have greatly enhanced the content's exposure. Unqueued content has seen less players: Normal raids, Rated BGs (even with a 5-man queuing system), Arena, and so on.

To me it seems like an obvious path for Blizzard to take.

[Crashdummy]

i heartily agree with the difficulty assessment but I thought we were discussing the pace at which the first guilds clear the new heroic content - not so much the pace of the next 500-1000 guilds.

Even taking first guilds progress pace, its stil harder nowadays.

Again, M'uru took 3 days. We would have to go to Vanilla with Ouro and C'thun (which was buggued) to reach times like the ones of today.

[Gande]

Quite right. millions of people play football. But the rules and design of football dont exclude those millions by default. This shows you can still have a game that everyone (more or less) can play without creating rulesets and designing for the super amazing.



I agree. The right way is to first create content for the average and then, as an afterthought, content for the outliers. At least, not if you want to be a mass market phenomenon.

I'm not understanding how the rules of the game are excluding anyone. Thats why we have LFR, everyone can participate, and they can pretty much play to their own style. They aren't yelled at for playing frost, or healing with 'wonky' talents.

Heroic modes should not be 'just an afterthought'. You need something for people to shoot for. If all of the raiding scene thats currently doing any heroics cleared the normals at the rates they did, you'd see a massive dropoff of the top playerbase. While this may be fine for the time being, it will cascade. Theres a magnitude that play only for the raiding, whether they do it themselves or they have friends that do it. If the raiders suddenly shifted over to, say, Rift, there would slowly but surely be a swing gathering speed. You would also see the average skill level of the PvE playerbase drop (simply because the current average is now top), meaning overall most likely less thorough theorycrafting and guides. The cycle for crying out for easier content would continue.

Hypothetically of course. Who knows, Naxx 2.0 seemed to do great.

[Deleted]

I'm not understanding how the rules of the game are excluding anyone. Thats why we have LFR, everyone can participate, and they can pretty much play to their own style. They aren't yelled at for playing frost, or healing with 'wonky' talents.

All you are really telling me here is that LFR difficulty level should be normal.

Heroic modes should not be 'just an afterthought'. You need something for people to shoot for.

Absolutely and utterly incorrect. To go back to the football analogy, millions of people do not play football in the hope of being in the world cup. They play football because playing football is fun.

Raiding needs to be less wipey and more fun - i.e. easier.

If all of the raiding scene thats currently doing any heroics cleared the normals at the rates they did, you'd see a massive dropoff of the top playerbase. While this may be fine for the time being, it will cascade. Theres a magnitude that play only for the raiding, whether they do it themselves or they have friends that do it. If the raiders suddenly shifted over to, say, Rift, there would slowly but surely be a swing gathering speed. You would also see the average skill level of the PvE playerbase drop (simply because the current average is now top), meaning overall most likely less thorough theorycrafting and guides. The cycle for crying out for easier content would continue.

You know that the hardcore raiding community is completely irrelevent, right?

Hypothetically of course. Who knows, Naxx 2.0 seemed to do great.

What does it matter if there is less theorycrafting if most people never use it anyway? People won't miss what they never knew about.

[steveyboy]

Only hard part about wow right now is having 9-24 other players who aren't completely braindead and know how to play there classes.

Whenever I do LFR it is quite clear people, especially tanks, have no clue what they are doing and refuse to have any advice from anybody else.

It doesn't matter if the content is hard or easy, if people do not know how to play the game will continue to be bad for all involved.

[Toxigen]

Raiding needs to be less wipey and more fun - i.e. easier.


You know that the hardcore raiding community is completely irrelevent, right?


What does it matter if there is less theorycrafting if most people never use it anyway? People won't miss what they never knew about.

Typical mindset these days. I just don't get it...if a game asks nothing of its players, what's left of it as a game?

In what WoW raiding used to be, the player experienced a game that was ongoing and natural, and most importantly, honest. At each step you succeeded or failed, and consequences flowed from that. Your guild used whatever resources were available to overcome each foe. In the current game, without the chance of success or failure, there is no such drama. Blizzard, in their wisdom, have sought to protect the player from the dreaded nightmare of his own failure. In doing so, guilds simply proceed along ever upwards, but with no ability to influence their own success. It just happens automatically.

How can you see this as a good thing?

[Crashdummy]

Only hard part about wow right now is having 9-24 other players who aren't completely braindead and know how to play there classes.

Whenever I do LFR it is quite clear people, especially tanks, have no clue what they are doing and refuse to have any advice from anybody else.

It doesn't matter if the content is hard or easy, if people do not know how to play the game will continue to be bad for all involved.

Yeah, WoW is so easy that only slightly more than 500 guilds in the world has completed the content after 5 months of it being avaiable and with several months of item upgrade nerfing the content each week.

WoW has never been harder than now.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 11:58 AM ----------

Typical mindset these days. I just don't get it...if a game asks nothing of its players, what's left of it as a game?

In what WoW raiding used to be, the player experienced a game that was ongoing and natural, and most importantly, honest. At each step you succeeded or failed, and consequences flowed from that. Your guild used whatever resources were available to overcome each foe. In the current game, without the chance of success or failure, there is no such drama. Blizzard, in their wisdom, have sought to protect the player from the dreaded nightmare of his own failure. In doing so, guilds simply proceed along ever upwards, but with no ability to influence their own success. It just happens automatically.

How can you see this as a good thing?

If you are good, nothing changed, at all. You will have the chance os success or fail in your heroic raiding and you wont miss content because you will finish each tier before the next.

And if you are not good, the game is in a better place than it used to be when you were 2 years raiding karazan only...

[Toxigen]

Yeah, WoW is so easy that only slightly more than 500 guilds in the world has completed the content after 5 months of it being avaiable and with several months of item upgrade nerfing the content each week.

WoW has never been harder than now.

Well, this is correct and incorrect at the same time.

It depends on how you see it. If you consider completing content as clearing all hardmodes (which I do as well), then yes, it is more difficult (only rival would be clearing Naxx before the BC patch).

However, more people are seeing and beating all of the bosses at some level than ever before...and they stop there and don't bother to challenge themselves on hardmodes. That is the issue...there is no incentive for people to challenge themselves anymore. Most are satisfied with walking into a raid, clearing it with very few wipes, and calling it a week. This is the mindset that Blizzard has created, and it isn't going away.

And if you are not good, the game is in a better place than it used to be when you were 2 years raiding karazan only...

How is automatic success better than a challenge? Again, typical mindset in the MMO community these days as a direct result of Blizzard's spoon-feeding.

I feel like the old army veteran talking about "kids these days." I think its time to duck out of this thread. Folks just cannot relate to how it used to be (I'm talking pre-WoW, like the '99 through 2004 era). There was so much more reward to be had when you put forth the effort to actually figure out how to overcome a particular challenge in any given MMORPG.