Harder Content = Better?

[judgementofantonidas]

Why not just go into a raid instance, push a button that kills boss, collect loot? Because it is fucking ridiculous.

or better yet. mail me my loot. i do not have the time to log on this week.

[wow2011]

There isn't a blue response on that. Blizzard has not officially defined raiding themselves.


As to the second part. Where did I say it wasn't? I'm sure that would fall under killing raid bosses meaning yes it would be raiding.

I am too lazy to quote properly with markup tags.
First you said: "Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less." (aka outdoor boss don't count)
Then you claimed that was Blizzard's definition when someone else disagreed.

Anyways, I don't want to play word game here and I am sure that is why Blizzard has not came out and defined what raiding is. I am just saying don't dress your opinion or a definition you grabbed from wowwiki as Blizzard's definition and use that to invalidate other people's opinions.

[Crashdummy]

Why not just go into a raid instance, push a button that kills boss, collect loot? Because it is fucking ridiculous.

Because Blizzard thinks, and i agree, that the amount of people that would find that enjoyable is too little.

But, if enough people would find that enjoyable, why not? Why would you, or i, care about people doing that?

[judgementofantonidas]

The "boss kill" is getting to the ruins, and both do get equal recognition by all people around there.

About the extra rewards, thats kind of my point, there is no extra reward even when some people take the "hard" path and others the "easy" path, and everyone3 is ok with that. Those doing the "hard" way dont ask for extra recognition or reward, they do it just because they enjoy doing it that way, and the others dont do it the hard way because they dont enjoy doing it that way.

Not everyone enjoys doing things the hard way, nor all the hard ways to do things are more rewarding to everyone.

The point is, to each their own, and what the others do or how other people feel more rewarding should not care to you.

Although this thread is very interesting I will have to be back later. Have to go run a few miles because for some unknown reason the Army will not drop the standards on the APFT to meet what I can complete more easily. The reward being my continued service. Funny thing it will not drop the standards on my subordinates that may end up receiving counselling statements for failing to meet the standard.

[Osmeric]

They didn't abandon it.

Yes, they abandoned the BC raid design philosophy. No longer is there a single (difficult) raid difficulty that only a tiny fraction of the player population will complete.

From this, I conclude that they were not satisfied with the BC raid design.

Wasn't it you who said the current content was too hard that not enough players have completed it prior to 5.2? So hard that guilds were dissolving? Wouldn't that be contradicting your statement that Blizzard isn't catering to a small fraction of the player base?

The current raid design is not the BC design. It has its own set of problems, but they are not identical to BC's problems.

In particular, in the context of where this conversation is coming from, the current design does NOT reserve entire raids worth of art assets for 1% of the player population. LFR means those art assets are seeing a huge amount of use.

[Orange Joe]

Anyways, I don't want to play word game here and I am sure that is why Blizzard has not came out and defined what raiding is. I am just saying don't dress your opinion or a definition you grabbed from wowwiki as Blizzard's definition and use that to invalidate other people's opinions.

But it's ok for you to tell us what raiding is. Got it. I won't bother replying to you anymore.

[wow2011]

But it's ok for you to tell us what raiding is. Got it. I won't bother replying to you anymore.

At what point did I ever tell anyone what raiding is? Matter of fact, I never even gave my opinion of what raiding should be. I was following the thread and I saw you putting other ppl's opinion down by pulling "blizzard's definition" of raiding out of thin air. Rage quitting after falsely stating something I never did? I would suggest if you cannot stand the fact that people will disagree on opinions then not only should you not reply to me, you should just stay away from forums in general.

[Aquamonkey]

But it's ok for you to tell us what raiding is. Got it. I won't bother replying to you anymore.

I am too lazy to quote properly with markup tags.
First you said: "Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less." (aka outdoor boss don't count)
Then you claimed that was Blizzard's definition when someone else disagreed.

Anyways, I don't want to play word game here and I am sure that is why Blizzard has not came out and defined what raiding is. I am just saying don't dress your opinion or a definition you grabbed from wowwiki as Blizzard's definition and use that to invalidate other people's opinions.

Blizzard defines a raid encounter as anything that requires more people than a party. Only appropriate level content counts. Going back and solo'ing old raids doesn't count, but doing old raids at the appropriate level does.

If you want to take on the greatest challenges World of Warcraft has to offer, you will need allies to fight by your side against the tides of darkness. With parties and raids, you get to rally other players to join you on your quest and defeat whatever evil stands in your way.

Parties are groups of up to 5 players; you should bring a party if you want to clear most of World of Warcraft’s dungeons. Raids are larger than parties and are generally composed of 10 or 25 players; the toughest monsters of World of Warcraft can only be taken down by these large raid groups. (Source)

World of Warcraft’s raid dungeons are even more challenging than its normal dungeons. You will likely visit many normal dungeons while your character is leveling up, but raid dungeons are the exclusive domain of high-level characters. Just like dungeons, raids come in various degrees of difficulty and different level ranges. You will need bigger groups of ten or even twenty-five players to bring down the monsters guarding these lairs. (Source)

[Otimus]

many do realize that and post statements to support it. they also end up being mercilessly bashed by the advocates of I cannot take time away from bashing you on a fan site in order to farm up my raid mats. LOL

Mostly, you've been bashed for your generally rude and insulting demeanor. (Which you seem to not even think exists)

[Crashdummy]

Although this thread is very interesting I will have to be back later. Have to go run a few miles because for some unknown reason the Army will not drop the standards on the APFT to meet what I can complete more easily. The reward being my continued service. Funny thing it will not drop the standards on my subordinates that may end up receiving counselling statements for failing to meet the standard.

There is a practical reason for that. They need you to have a minimum training so you can respond better in battle.

I can assure you its not so that you can feel more rewarding about it.

I dont think games should have similar requirement than the US Army though.

[melodramocracy]

Work smarter not harder.

So would you, for example, be the sort of person who god modes their way through a single player game?

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 03:05 PM ----------

This argument leaves out the obvious: that the difficult challenges are inherently more rewarding... IF they are completed.

But the more difficult they are, the fewer people will complete them. So, for many people (increasing in number as the challenge increases), making the content more difficult doesn't increase the reward, it reduces it.

This kind of "cater to the elite" game design is superficially attractive, but only because most people wrongly overestimate their own competence, and so wrongly think they'll be in that elite.

This is a good point. The reward has to be something that is deemed worthwhile to pursue, or you have a much larger problem on your hands as a game designer.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 03:05 PM ----------

Where is that definition written? I was not aware that Blizzard has come out and defined what raiding is in black and white. With that definition, me going back to MC farming pets can be counted as raiding as well. Please post a link.

Raiding isn't some Blizzard invention...

[Tomana]

Although this thread is very interesting I will have to be back later. Have to go run a few miles because for some unknown reason the Army will not drop the standards on the APFT to meet what I can complete more easily. The reward being my continued service. Funny thing it will not drop the standards on my subordinates that may end up receiving counselling statements for failing to meet the standard.

But they do drop it. The older you get the lower the bar is. And guess what, it's the same for players. They get older, they get career, families, but they still want to see content and do some bosses. Hence the multi-tiered raiding.

[melodramocracy]

But they do drop it. The older you get the lower the bar is. And guess what, it's the same for players. They get older, they get career, families, but they still want to see content and do some bosses. Hence the multi-tiered raiding.

Or, they get older, careers, ask for the game to be less time consuming, Blizzard consents, players wind up investing the same amount of time, and just increase the number of alts they have.

MoP hits, lots to do, players say they can't get all their alts VP capped and raid ready on a weekly basis, freak out and ask game to be less time consuming.
Blizzard smashes its own collective head on a desk.

[Grogo]

The more Blizz wants to please everyone the less effective they are. I think they had a clearer vision 6 years ago.

[Tomana]

Or, they get older, careers, ask for the game to be less time consuming, Blizzard consents, players wind up investing the same amount of time, and just increase the number of alts they have.

This is mostly a Cata consequence if you ask me.
Not much to do at end-game + improved leveling = lots of alts. 4.3 was similiar in that regard too, with a short raid tier and LFR.

[Osmeric]

The more Blizz wants to please everyone the less effective they are. I think they had a clearer vision 6 years ago.

If they started catering to you, but moved away to cater to a larger demographic, of course you're going to feel that way. It doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 08:48 PM ----------

This is mostly a Cata consequence if you ask me.
Not much to do at end-game + improved leveling = lots of alts. 4.3 was similiar in that regard too, with a short raid tier and LFR.

I'm finding four characters is about the max I can gear up through LFR/VP, if I want to VP cap them each week, and even then it is time consuming. This seems alt-friendly enough to me.

It would be fewer if I also wanted to do PvP. But casual PvP is in a bad state right now.

[TooMuch]

But they do drop it. The older you get the lower the bar is. And guess what, it's the same for players. They get older, they get career, families, but they still want to see content and do some bosses. Hence the multi-tiered raiding.

Why is it that there are no new players at all in this game? Every time I read this kind of posts, I can only laugh. Wasn't there some report that said that the average age of players in WoW is going down instead of up. Will try to find it...

[Grogo]

If they started catering to you, but moved away to cater to a larger demographic, of course you're going to feel that way. It doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

If...if my Auntie had nuts she would be my Uncle. Company's lose there way through various means, bean counters etc and what not. I guess we can all sit here and be arm chair quarter backs, in the end, we all decide with our wallets I guess. I seriously believe we may see a shift 6 months from now.

[HardCoder]

People saying the experience will be more "rewarding" or "satisfying" for people when they complete more difficult content do not understand that not everyone, and most likely a large majority of players, do not play WoW for a "challenge."

They will not enjoy more difficulty because they don't play WoW, in general, to overcome difficulty. They play it to relax, to socialize, to admire the pixels, to perform meditative tasks like herbing for hours, to game the AH, to collect pets/achievements/mounts, and so on. Perhaps they have difficult day jobs and want to zzzz in the game, or perhaps difficult encounters just aren't their thing.

LFR was a great addition to the game because it lets people have some of the raiding experience in a very accessible, casual way. It's not that different from Baradin Hold in terms of difficulty (I would say almost identical), and BH dropped normal mode gear, and there was not any particular whining about the loot pinata.

It's easy, it's fun for some people (many people), it's VERY popular, and it's not going away. It's not going to get harder either.

If it's no fun because of the lack of challenge, then by all means don't participate. If you participate anyway because you want the gear, then can you please be polite and play your role well.

[Otimus]

People saying the experience will be more "rewarding" or "satisfying" for people when they complete more difficult content do not understand that not everyone, and most likely a large majority of players, do not play WoW for a "challenge."

They will not enjoy more difficulty because they don't play WoW, in general, to overcome difficulty. They play it to relax, to socialize, to admire the pixels, to perform meditative tasks like herbing for hours, to game the AH, to collect pets/achievements/mounts, and so on. Perhaps they have difficult day jobs and want to zzzz in the game, or perhaps difficult encounters just aren't their thing.

LFR was a great addition to the game because it lets people have some of the raiding experience in a very accessible, casual way. It's not that different from Baradin Hold in terms of difficulty (I would say almost identical), and BH dropped normal mode gear, and there was not any particular whining about the loot pinata.

It's easy, it's fun for some people (many people), it's VERY popular, and it's not going away. It's not going to get harder either.

If it's no fun because of the lack of challenge, then by all means don't participate. If you participate anyway because you want the gear, then can you please be polite and play your role well.

Hardcore gamers, not just WoW, seem to not grasp that everything has to be about challenge. The best way to challenge people is to either let them choose to be challenged, or build a system in which the game gradually becomes challenging. Blizzard chose the former.

Frankly, I'm a bit confused as to why certain people want certain things. It'd be like complaining that people whom play, say, Metal Gear Solid on Very Easy don't deserve to see the ending, or something. It makes little sense.

No, more to the point, some of these people act like half the game should be cut out if you play it on easy, or something, should be stripped of any rewards at all, and you should be mocked and belittled for playing it on easy, and possibly kicked in the shins.