Harder Content = Better?

[Darmalus]

Raids are the PvE "endgame". LFR normal and heroic are different difficulty levels, nothing more.

[Otimus]

To someone who has one toon at level 90, and is unable to raid for whatever reason, the "endgame" choices are dailies-for-useless-valor/pointless-5-mans/pet battles/camp-the-AH/whatever, or LFR, or "start a new toon."

Or "quit the game."

So to me it seems that LFR is a valid "endgame."

Exactly my point right there. It's not even that I don't like challenges or whatever, that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[klaps_05]

depends on point of view. i am a heroic raider and no matter how hard a heroic boss will be, i will have it down within a month(unless useless gating) because I play with 29 other exceptional players in the same guild.

what I do prefer are for example fights like XT hardmode(where you had a DPS requirement to fill before even tackling the hard mode), which makes the normal mode harder in a way. or a fight like mimiron/yogg which were extremely long, tons of things to remember, avoid, work towards. heal checks, dps checks, positioning checks, raid awareness checks, all in one. i believe THAT is a better content, but not necessarily harder.

[Deleted]

So, about 28k guilds are all full of lazy people, there is no little chance that a couple bosses in HoF (the point where the curve goes down a long way) are overtuned, right?

By the way, there are almost no guilds that have cleared NOrmal and nothing in Heroic, so the non lazy Normal raiders are apparently non existant according to you...

I can assure you that many of those people that couldnt complete Normal are people that watch videos, have their valor gear, have their items upgraded, wtc, because i have played with them with my alts which i use to pug the content.

They just dont have the neccesary skill to complete a very overtuned content (which even Blzizard admitted it was overtuned, when they said that they belive some of the Normal T14 enrage timers were too tight).

According to you, they are all lazy people. I think you are wrong. The playerbase cant be divided between Heroic raiders and lazy people, there are thousands in the middle.

First of all, I didn't use the term "lazy". I said, what I still believe, that a lot (not all) could probably have done more themselves. I mean how often do we see people saying "I don't wanna read the dungeon journal or a video, I like learning by doing" when it comes to LFR. Or "I cbf with the best food, enchants, gems or reforge". I never said EVERYONE who can't clear Normal are lazy. I just pointed out, that many of them could most likely get more kills, if they put in more effort. Big difference.

I also never claimed, that this Tier doesn't have any overtuned fights. I actually never commented on that. But I will say this, some of the bosses does seem overtuned considering the skill level of a lot (again not all) Normal mode raiders. I say this based on numbers that others have provided in this thread but personally I don't feel they're overtuned - my personal opinion. But numbers don't lie and if Blizz says so as well, then that's the way it is for a lot of people.

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 02:00 AM ----------

Wait. You see no problem with this? How is that not a problem? It effectively means new people are screwed. You don't have the achievements, no one wants you, you can't get the gear, because you don't have the achievements, no one wants you. So, in that, you can't get the achievements, you can't get the gear... no one wants you. That is a major, major, major community problem.

It effectively means raiders are comprised of people who have been raiding in the past, and not much else. Or people who were raiding at the start of an expansion. You're effectively culled away, and doomed if you don't do something at the very beginning. That's broken and flawed.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 08:05 PM ----------



For the millionth time, gear is content :x RPG's are about character progression.

What I said was, that people can't expect to be carried to epics and achievements. I also said, that EVERYONE starts from the beginning. But some how some people made it to a raiding guild, while others didn't. Again, I believe it depends on your server. But it also depends on the effort (the nasty word) you put into the game. I started raiding in a really casual guild, where things were just so derp, that I would never raid with such people again. But I can say that now, cause I did take the route of learning and progressing, the route that some people don't seem to be willing to take.

I slowly moved up the ladder, slowly learned more, got better and got rewarded. But you all make it sound like, new players should be given free rides to everything and that people who have done the hard work should just carry them. I mean, what world do you live in?

We can discuss the tuning of this Tier but don't tell me, that the raiders should be boosting you just cause you feel entitled to epics.

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 02:05 AM ----------

...5-man Heroics were meant for quick and easy gear farming, not to teach people how to raid. They stopped being quick and players felt they had no time to run them, and quit instead of spending up to 14h a week getting their valor cap, They stopped being easy and players felt they had no time to boost the weaker geared players, and quit instead of spending even more time trying to get their valor cap.

Normal mode raids should be the true introduction to raiding, as it's actually raiding.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:21 PM ----------


To keep raiding afloat as end-game content.

So if you know that cutting corners with gems/enchants and professions has cost you a trial spot in the past, why don't you just fix it? It really doesn't require much to lvl cooking to 600 (though I would never decline, or even mention this myself as a reply to an applicant). You can use your farm to grow mats, enchanting mats and gems are so cheap, that even if you didn't bother doing the farm crap, it wouldn't cost you a fortune.

This is what I mean by "putting in the effort". Do you actually feel, that the guild(s) that declined you were elitist pricks? Cause personally, I'd decline you in a heartbeat as well. If you can't even be bothered going over your character before applying, why should a guild bother giving you a trial?

[Otimus]

First of all, I didn't use the term "lazy". I said, what I still believe, that a lot (not all) could probably have done more themselves. I mean how often do we see people saying "I don't wanna read the dungeon journal or a video, I like learning by doing" when it comes to LFR. Or "I cbf with the best food, enchants, gems or reforge". I never said EVERYONE who can't clear Normal are lazy. I just pointed out, that many of them could most likely get more kills, if they put in more effort. Big difference.

I also never claimed, that this Tier doesn't have any overtuned fights. I actually never commented on that. But I will say this, some of the bosses does seem overtuned considering the skill level of a lot (again not all) Normal mode raiders. I say this based on numbers that others have provided in this thread but personally I don't feel they're overtuned - my personal opinion. But numbers don't lie and if Blizz says so as well, then that's the way it is for a lot of people.

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 02:00 AM ----------




What I said was, that people can't expect to be carried to epics and achievements. I also said, that EVERYONE starts from the beginning. But some how some people made it to a raiding guild, while others didn't. Again, I believe it depends on your server. But it also depends on the effort (the nasty word) you put into the game. I started raiding in a really casual guild, where things were just so derp, that I would never raid with such people again. But I can say that now, cause I did take the route of learning and progressing, the route that some people don't seem to be willing to take.

I slowly moved up the ladder, slowly learned more, got better and got rewarded. But you all make it sound like, new players should be given free rides to everything and that people who have done the hard work should just carry them. I mean, what world do you live in?

We can discuss the tuning of this Tier but don't tell me, that the raiders should be boosting you just cause you feel entitled to epics.

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 02:05 AM ----------



So if you know that cutting corners with gems/enchants and professions has cost you a trial spot in the past, why don't you just fix it? It really doesn't require much to lvl cooking to 600 (though I would never decline, or even mention this myself as a reply to an applicant). You can use your farm to grow mats, enchanting mats and gems are so cheap, that even if you didn't bother doing the farm crap, it wouldn't cost you a fortune.

This is what I mean by "putting in the effort". Do you actually feel, that the guild(s) that declined you were elitist pricks? Cause personally, I'd decline you in a heartbeat as well. If you can't even be bothered going over your character before applying, why should a guild bother giving you a trial?

That isn't even my point. My point is, is that it's seemingly impossible to do anything if you haven't already done it. How are you gathering that from what I'm saying? The general attitude, as I said, is that the general people raiding, are people who have already been raiding for a while, and they want other people who have been raiding for a while, as such, people who are new are generally going to be excluded by virtue of not having already done things. It's not about "boosting". It's about people wanting to do stuff, but can't because they haven't already done it.

Don't have the achievements? no one wants you. Want to make your own guild? You're not a raider, no one wants to join it. It's one big catch 22, where people are forever excluded for being late to the game, unless you're absurdly lucky.

Basically, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and it's nigh impossible to get anywhere being new. It's NOT about not wanting to do stuff or make an effort. That's not even what I mean at all. You can make all the effort in the world, but if all you have is achievements from doing LFR, the possibility of anyone wanting you is about 10%.

[Deleted]

No.

Wow, my contribution is so useful!

[Deleted]

That isn't even my point. My point is, is that it's seemingly impossible to do anything if you haven't already done it. How are you gathering that from what I'm saying? The general attitude, as I said, is that the general people raiding, are people who have already been raiding for a while, and they want other people who have been raiding for a while, as such, people who are new are generally going to be excluded by virtue of not having already done things. It's not about "boosting". It's about people wanting to do stuff, but can't because they haven't already done it.

Don't have the achievements? no one wants you. Want to make your own guild? You're not a raider, no one wants to join it. It's one big catch 22, where people are forever excluded for being late to the game, unless you're absurdly lucky.

Basically, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and it's nigh impossible to get anywhere being new. It's NOT about not wanting to do stuff or make an effort. That's not even what I mean at all. You can make all the effort in the world, but if all you have is achievements from doing LFR, the possibility of anyone wanting you is about 10%.

And I just disagree. To be a bit harsh, I think you're whining a bit. Of course this is the case for some people but this is directly related to what I've been saying about making a good impression and putting in the effort. Because if you can demonstrate knowledge about your class/spec, show that you care about your character in terms of professions, enchants, gems etc. and generally make a good impression, there will be guilds who will give you a chance. My own guild has done this several times, taken a chance with someone. Most of the times we made the right decision but obviously you have to make up for lack of gear and experience in another way.

What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?

[joppas]

Stopped raiding in ICC so i dont have any experience from cataclysm/mop. The game was slow back in vanilla, everything took a very long time to do. I was up in felwoodgrinding essence of water for over 12 hours and i ended up earning 150g after i sold them on ah. My point being that for the people who got to see naxxramas and kill Kel alot of hard work and alot of dedication was required. I didnt mind not getting to see all of naxxramas, i got to see the kills thru movies.

When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?

I was a raider in vanilla,tbc and wotlk and i think i had the most fun in ulduar. Hardmodes and killing the boss in a new and much harder way was very exciting to me.

[HardCoder]

What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?

I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?

[Otimus]

And I just disagree. To be a bit harsh, I think you're whining a bit. Of course this is the case for some people but this is directly related to what I've been saying about making a good impression and putting in the effort. Because if you can demonstrate knowledge about your class/spec, show that you care about your character in terms of professions, enchants, gems etc. and generally make a good impression, there will be guilds who will give you a chance. My own guild has done this several times, taken a chance with someone. Most of the times we made the right decision but obviously you have to make up for lack of gear and experience in another way.

What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?

I didn't really say it was IMPOSSIBLE, just that it's very unlikely. At least in so far as how it is on my server (Blackrock).

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 04:00 AM ----------

I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?

I'm not sure, but if anything, hasn't evidence shown that the amount of raiders hasn't really grown all that much since wrath? and has kind of tapered off over time, even, LFR not counting?

[judgementofantonidas]

And I just disagree. To be a bit harsh, I think you're whining a bit. Of course this is the case for some people but this is directly related to what I've been saying about making a good impression and putting in the effort. Because if you can demonstrate knowledge about your class/spec, show that you care about your character in terms of professions, enchants, gems etc. and generally make a good impression, there will be guilds who will give you a chance. My own guild has done this several times, taken a chance with someone. Most of the times we made the right decision but obviously you have to make up for lack of gear and experience in another way.

What you're basically saying, is that no new players has entered the raiding pool at all since Wrath? How do you think, that some people make it?

Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.

[Deleted]

I don't think the pool of raiders and raiding guilds has grown or become more permissive in the past 2-4 years. Do you have some evidence that it has?

But that's not what I said. Maybe go read it again, cause I never said anything about the pool of raiders or raiding guilds. I said, that it would seem like he's implying, that NO new players has entered the raiding pool - see the difference?

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 05:56 AM ----------

Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.

That doesn't mean, that I'm not entitled to an opinion. Why post at all, if you don't want to discuss?

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 06:10 AM ----------

I didn't really say it was IMPOSSIBLE, just that it's very unlikely. At least in so far as how it is on my server (Blackrock).

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 04:00 AM ----------



I'm not sure, but if anything, hasn't evidence shown that the amount of raiders hasn't really grown all that much since wrath? and has kind of tapered off over time, even, LFR not counting?

I remember Blackrock, from when I played on US servers myself. Back then (2 years ago) Blackrock had a reputation for being a server with really good guilds but also for having a nasty attitude. Obviously that was just the word on my own server and much can have changed. But as I said, it can vary from server to server. It depends on the amount of "hardcore" guilds compared to the more "casual" guilds and the amount of raiding guilds as a whole. Obviously it's going to be a lot harder getting into a guild on a low pop server for instance.

And again, both you and I are basing our arguments off of personal experience. In your case, on your server, it may actually be near impossible for new raiders to enter the raiding scene. But on my server, there's a lot of Normal mode guilds and as I've said several times before, my own guild has taken chances several times.

But I guess this is the same old discussion between more casual (not bad by default) and more serious players. We see things from two completely different angles and because of the experiences you've personally had, I doubt I can make you change your view. Just as it's unlikely, that you can change mine.

I will say this tough; Blizz has done a lot to the really casual playerbase introducing LFR, making it accessible to everyone regardless experience and effort. Maybe they haven't paid enough attention to the players who wants a bigger challenge than LFR but struggles on the harder Normal bosses. I don't know tbh.
What I do know, is that the amount of bosses in this Tier added with the fairly short amount of time people have had to kill them, it may feel more stressful for more casual players.

Had there only been 8 bosses like in DS, people would have had a lot more time to spend on each boss. Also, the class balancing and the boss mechanics tend to punish bad setups. A lot of guilds (not just casual) struggles trying to balance the setup, where caster dps yet again are being favored for most encounters. My guess is, that more casual guilds will be more inclined to bring the player they like, rather than the player who happens to play the best class. That's not an option for Heroic guilds and if you try to clear even Normal mode as a casual guild with 3 melee and 2 Resto Druids, you kinda made things a lot harder already. But that's not so much about tuning in terms of difficulty, that's more about tuning between classes.

[Otimus]

Ottis's words are spoken with the voice of the people. Just take that for a fact.

....What in the world does that mean?

[Wheelz]

Ah, the old "the game is fine, it's the players who are defective" argument.

Um, no.

Uhm, yes.


How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.

[Mandible]

Um... making normal raids even less accessible to people? Not everyone wants to do 25 mans, why do people not understand this?

Sucks to be them. Also not being able to access something means A. they will whine about it. B. Accept and improve / join 25 man guild. C.Accept and stay at their current level.
It also reflects on your real life - if you can´t access something, or don´t want to do something do you then whine till you get in or say that if you don´t like doing something then noone should? As you can probably see I think its a good idea to have different raids for different amounts of people / difficulty - I might not like it if I can´t run, but I´d accept the fact there are alot of content and that I´d have to go through some work to get there (depending on guild). Anything that would actually be crap would be the behaviour of people who went there and started taunting those who can´t being jerks about it. But I´d prefer it over the current state where you hardly got any reason to either be in a guild, or really improve.

[Deleted]

Uhm, yes.


How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.

You are a very good or even great player in a team of very good or even great players. Grats!

You are also conmpletely unrepresentative of the playerbase as a whole. Normal mode raids are overtuned, end of story.

---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 11:08 AM ----------

Sucks to be them. Also not being able to access something means A. they will whine about it. B. Accept and improve / join 25 man guild. C.Accept and stay at their current level.
It also reflects on your real life - if you can´t access something, or don´t want to do something do you then whine till you get in or say that if you don´t like doing something then noone should? As you can probably see I think its a good idea to have different raids for different amounts of people / difficulty - I might not like it if I can´t run, but I´d accept the fact there are alot of content and that I´d have to go through some work to get there (depending on guild). Anything that would actually be crap would be the behaviour of people who went there and started taunting those who can´t being jerks about it. But I´d prefer it over the current state where you hardly got any reason to either be in a guild, or really improve.

Well I dunno about you, but any supermarket that had an assault course where the front door should be is one I would judiciously avoid shopping in.

And so it is with games. make your game inaccessible, people don't play it, you go broke and then there is no game.

When you make for an audience, you have to make for that audience. End of story, this isn't caving in to whiners, or being weak, it's a fact of selling stuff to people. You give them what they want or someone else does.

[HardCoder]

When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?

I don't think that the creation of LFR was entirely driven by subscriber demand.

I think there was also great frustration at Blizzard that content that took a lot of time and effort and money to design, a significant part of the effort for each release of the game, was being missed by most subscribers.

[wow2011]

Uhm, yes.

How is the content overtuned? Even though blizzard admitted it, I disagree. They were forced by whine to seem compasionate. Something I experience at my job too.
In the beginning of the expansion we were clearing bosses with ilvl 468.. We spent 4 hours killing elegon, but what a feeling we got when we downed him. And next week we 1 shot it with ilvl 469.

A few fights on normal is a bit overtuned for a generic wow player from my experience. You have to keep in mind this is a game and majority of people play it for fun. People don't always care enough to spend time to get better in order to overcome a challenge presented in a game.

I remember back in highschool, my physics class spent 1 entire week explaining X and Y components to a vector and how that relates to a projectile motion. I was able to grasp the concept in 10 min but some other students literally took a week by reading textbook and asking questions. They bothered reading and asking questions because they are motivated to do so to get better grades. If grades weren't there then I would assume most people would simply not care and give up.

So I think you just have to realize that there are a lot of people playing wow and most of them simply are not good enough for the standard that Blizzard has set and the players are not motivated enough to improve. Afterall, WoW is a game designed for fun. So the only options for them to beat a difficult encounter is to wait for the blanket nerf and/or wait for Blizz to nerf those specific encounters.

So yeah, wowprogress data definitely suggests that normal mode encounter is too difficult for the current WoW raiders in general. And that is also why Blizzard is bringing the difficulty down with a blanket nerf when 5.2 hits.

[Otimus]

A few fights on normal is a bit overtuned for a generic wow player from my experience. You have to keep in mind this is a game and majority of people play it for fun. People don't always care enough to spend time to get better in order to overcome a challenge presented in a game.

I remember back in highschool, my physics class spent 1 entire week explaining X and Y components to a vector and how that relates to a projectile motion. I was able to grasp the concept in 10 min but some other students literally took a week by reading textbook and asking questions. They bothered reading and asking questions because they are motivated to do so to get better grades. If grades weren't there then I would assume most people would simply not care and give up.

So I think you just have to realize that there are a lot of people playing wow and most of them simply are not good enough for the standard that Blizzard has set and the players are not motivated enough to improve. Afterall, WoW is a game designed for fun. So the only options for them to beat a difficult encounter is to wait for the blanket nerf and/or wait for Blizz to nerf those specific encounters.

So yeah, wowprogress data definitely suggests that normal mode encounter is too difficult for the current WoW raiders in general. And that is also why Blizzard is bringing the difficulty down with a blanket nerf when 5.2 hits.

I really like your analogy, and I like how you explained this. This is the way to do it, people. Don't compare things to jobs. That's the wrong way to do it.

[Deleted]

When wow became a oversized cash cow and all the subs was at it's peak i think they decided that people who bought wow which is a pve game should be able to see all the pve content, cos thats why they bought the game right?

As far as I remember they pushed to get LFR out at the end of Cata although it was planned for MoP. I think it had more to do with the fact that with the merger of 10 and 25 lockouts. And the increase in difficulty in 10 mans.
A lot of people who used to raid found themselves in a situation where they couldn't progress very far into raid instances, either because they where not good enough or because they where unable to find a guild willing to let them join or perhap because of the funny trend that started with cata of if you do not have the achivement you can join my pug, but I can't get the achivement because I haven't done the raid yet.
So I think that the reason they pushed LFR is because of complaints from a large group of raiders who couldn't raid anymore.