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  1. #241
    Ok im still only @501iLvl, but really wanted to get the feel of the fight, by using the "quikbunny" strat.
    So i started tanking LK ontop of the throne, taking shadowtraps like a baws, watching for infest...

    But then i've got throw in the air, and when i fall down it's like im vibrating..!? And almost got 1 shot, used LoH, but the 2nd time was fatal.
    So i check recount and i see...


    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-08-05 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #242
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Are we aware that vengeance cuts will also be put into old raids, and not just the new ones? Obviously it won't impact 85-90 much unless I guess you do the endurance ghoul strat, since I know on my 90 I typically top out at 100-120k.
    It won't affect 90 at all. My Prot set got a few upgrades and is now 502 and I'm sat on ~730K HP with the ICC buff, crystal (i.e. +500 to all stats for an hour, not consumed on use, not usable with flasks). That's still a fairly low gear level, but it's definitely made it easier than it was at 494 or whatever I had last week. Case in point, the 30% cap will, assuming it goes ahead, limit me to 219000 Vengeance. That won't even scratch the surface of the vengeance I get on LK25 HC, so it won't be affected since I tend to cap out at around 145K. That does involve extending phase 1 to 10:30 to 11 minutes at my gear level, but it's not an issue surviving it. In fact, I did so well that I managed to get the LK to 8% before he killed me off for the final phase, and there was still 4-5 seconds on the transition timer.

    I could easily skip through it at the 9 minute mark, but I like to see how much I can push the phase out. I think I might push it to 13 minutes next week and see if I can burst him down to 5% before the insta-kill. It's difficult to not bring him below 70% just from melee swings in the first phase, but I'm sure I'll figure something out. I might eventually try to extend it to 14 minutes, and see if I can push the 60% health (i.e. 70% to 10%) in under a minute - assuming the enrage/berserk is still 15 minutes. I'd need to be doing 1.03M DPS consistently to manage it, but since I can burst up to 750K when cooldowns are up for the start of the second transition (and around 520K sustained when CD's drop off), I don't think it'll be as difficult as I expect.

    I'm actually gonna film next weeks zerg attempt - wanted to film it this week but having not updated fraps for a while, most of the footage was corrupted due to me running x64 and DX11 (which was an issue with Fraps until about a year ago). I figure people already know how to do it, but it's worth making a video to show just how much 'easier' it is than micromanaging the ghouls and going through Frostmourne phases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    Ok im still only @501iLvl, but really wanted to get the feel of the fight, by using the "quikbunny" strat.
    So i started tanking LK ontop of the throne, taking shadowtraps like a baws, watching for infest...

    But then i've got throw in the air, and when i fall down it's like im vibrating..!? And almost got 1 shot, used LoH, but the 2nd time was fatal.
    So i check recount and i see...
    Don't soak the shadow traps. Kite him around the bottom edge of the platform, moving him when he drops a new one on you. You might well manage to soak them all, but there's always a risk that it'll go the other way and completely screw you over. By kiting him away, you also minimize the risk of bugging out the last phase RP, since all adds will be spawned well away from Tirion. Sure, the throne is far enough away too, but then you're having to hope you don't get fucked over by environment RNG from the shadow traps.

    I also noted 71% on the LK, and only 5:45 minutes. That's nowhere long enough to try the zerg tactic. At that gear level, similar to mine, the minimum you can realistically switch to P2 is after 8:30 minutes.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-02 at 03:09 PM.
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  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    Don't soak the shadow traps. Kite him around the bottom edge of the platform, moving him when he drops a new one on you. You might well manage to soak them all, but there's always a risk that it'll go the other way and completely screw you over. By kiting him away, you also minimize the risk of bugging out the last phase RP, since all adds will be spawned well away from Tirion. Sure, the throne is far enough away too, but then you're having to hope you don't get fucked over by environment RNG from the shadow traps.

    I also noted 71% on the LK, and only 5:45 minutes. That's nowhere long enough to try the zerg tactic. At that gear level, similar to mine, the minimum you can realistically switch to P2 is after 8:30 minutes.
    Well on the 2nd try managed to get to transtion phase, but got kicked out by ice sphere, because..you know i tunnel like a complete nab :/ lol

    Anyway, one more question, if i manage to reach the P2-P3 transition and go all out on LK, should i switch to Seal of Truth or stay with Seal of Insight?

    Cheers.

  4. #244
    If you insist on soaking traps, don't tank him on the throne or you get tossed up like that. Tank him half way up the stairs.

  5. #245
    Okay so, managed the ice thingies, but wiped due to Silence, guess gotta kill Raging Spirits.

    Btw. Wiped @34% with 3min left till Berserk. Is that good, or i need more gear?

    Btw armory doesn't show, but i'm fully haste gemmed now, using all possible pots, flasks n stuff, and im around ~23ish % haste.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    If you insist on soaking traps, don't tank him on the throne or you get tossed up like that. Tank him half way up the stairs.
    I'm tanking him on top of throne for last ~40 kills on my chars, it's ok. Matter of practice, bit luck (kicks me up like 1 try of 10, acceptable rng as price of not moving at all for 10mins).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    Okay so, managed the ice thingies, but wiped due to Silence, guess gotta kill Raging Spirits.
    Btw. Wiped @34% with 3min left till Berserk. Is that good, or i need more gear?
    Btw armory doesn't show, but i'm fully haste gemmed now, using all possible pots, flasks n stuff, and im around ~23ish % haste.
    Hard to say why you wiped, at least for me. On "10min P1" strat, most of wipes I got were from parries. With high silence uptime I feel that most of healing in T2 comes from SoI melee attacks. Gear fixes that.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalus View Post
    Hard to say why you wiped, at least for me. On "10min P1" strat, most of wipes I got were from parries. With high silence uptime I feel that most of healing in T2 comes from SoI melee attacks. Gear fixes that.
    Ok so reached 2 times P2-P3 Transition, but im literally getting destroyed there..trying to go all out on LK, watch for ice spheres, but literally im getting raped :/


    EDIT:

    Ok managed to get "decent" P2-P3 transition, but im waisting alot of time killing raging spirits and ice thingies.. :/
    Managed to get LK to ~21%, when the transition ended, got ported to frostmourne room and got 1 shotted there :/

    Guess i'll try to do 10+ mins in P1, for more adds, and just zerg it tru P2-P3 transition and ignore raging spirits..let's see how this goes

    Any advice, or should just get better gear ;p
    Last edited by Ktperry; 2013-08-02 at 09:16 PM.

  8. #248
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    Wondering how the actual vengeance changes put in will change anything. Don't think the DR on multiple targets was necessarily the smartest idea... (for instance, would things change if you got a big add first and small add second versus the reverse?)

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalus View Post
    I'm tanking him on top of throne for last ~40 kills on my chars, it's ok. Matter of practice, bit luck (kicks me up like 1 try of 10, acceptable rng as price of not moving at all for 10mins).
    Or you just tank on the stairs and still don't have to move for 10 minutes and you'll never ever be tossed up =p

  10. #250
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    So with these new vengeance changes on the ptr what's the chance exactly of us or dks still being able to do this fight this expac?

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm137 View Post
    So with these new vengeance changes on the ptr what's the chance exactly of us or dks still being able to do this fight this expac?
    Changes will be meaningless. The 80 mobs don't technically provide vengeance anyway so we'll still kill it quicker than we do currently with the GC change, irrespective of this nerf.

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  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktperry View Post
    Ok so reached 2 times P2-P3 Transition, but im literally getting destroyed there..trying to go all out on LK, watch for ice spheres, but literally im getting raped :/


    EDIT:

    Ok managed to get "decent" P2-P3 transition, but im waisting alot of time killing raging spirits and ice thingies.. :/
    Managed to get LK to ~21%, when the transition ended, got ported to frostmourne room and got 1 shotted there :/

    Guess i'll try to do 10+ mins in P1, for more adds, and just zerg it tru P2-P3 transition and ignore raging spirits..let's see how this goes

    Any advice, or should just get better gear ;p
    Make sure you've got an up to date DBM AND the Wrath modules installed and working.

    Steps:
    1) Extend Phase 1 to 10 minutes
    2) Use Seal of Insight throughout
    3) Keep Sacred Shield up at all times - refresh it at the 15 second mark if you must, and then refresh it when he get's to 70% and again at 41%
    4) Replace Avenger's Shield binding/button with this macro;
    Code:
    #showtooltip
    /tar Ice Sphere
    /cast Avenger's Shield
    /tar The Lich King
    5) At 40% transition, pop Holy Avenger, Avenging Wrath, Divine Protection, Aura Mastery, Ardent Defender, and GoaK
    6) Spam Avenger's Shield macro (above) AND Shield of the Righteous
    7) Watch for the 'Phase Transition' timer. When it get's to ~5 seconds, pop Execution Sentence on the Lich King

    If you did it right, and you've got enough haste, you should be able to beat him down. ES on the LK before the transition ensures you get another few seconds of decent damage on him after the transition ends, and it might be what finishes it off to the 10% mark.

    As I said before, the DPS increase I saw from 494 to 502 was massive on this fight. We're talking several hundred thousand DPS increase during burst, and a significant amount during sustained on the transition phase.

    That macro was the single biggest change I made though, and it alone moved me from barely hitting 25% on the transition to hitting 10% with some time to spare. I basically don't even see the target switch, and with GC proccing so much, I never miss an Ice Sphere. You DO have to watch for them landing, and move yourself around to face them, but otherwise it's a straight up burst. I think you can probably even have that macro 'in place' permanently, as it won't be able to target the LK or Ice Sphere if they don't exist, and will instead cast on your current target (e.g. a boss in ToT, a player in a BG, or a mob in the world, etc).

    You'll dodge/parry most attacks, block the others, absorb some more, and heal those that do get through or those that did damage through blocks. This is why SoI is needed here. You NEVER stop to WoG yourself in the transition phase, you're using all your Holy Power exclusively on ShoR/SotR (I prefer the ShoR abbreviation that came around in WotLK). Since you're silenced, it's often not possible to get WoG off anyway, but since ShoR and AS are 'physical' attacks, they can't be countered by the silence from the spirits.

    Also, since ShoR isn't on the GCD, you could probably modify the macro like this;

    Code:
    #showtooltip Avenger's Shield
    /tar Ice Sphere
    /cast Shield of the Righteous
    /cast Avenger's Shield
    /tar The Lich King
    That should cast ShoR if you've got enough Holy Power, and AS if it's not on cooldown (either through normal 15 second CD, or through a GC proc). Having them switched around won't work, as the ability NOT on the GCD must be first in line in a macro. Failing that, using a /castsequence macro in place of those 2 lines would work. Using #showtooltip set to AS allows you to see the cooldown of it, as opposed to that of ShoR (which has no realistic cooldown).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm137 View Post
    So with these new vengeance changes on the ptr what's the chance exactly of us or dks still being able to do this fight this expac?
    I'm honestly not sure.
    - DR's on multimob vengeance? We need some solid numbers to be able to calculate it.
    - 30% cap? Won't affect 90's.
    - No damage from AoE? Will make standing in Defile and remorseless winter worthless
    - No Vengeance from missed attacks? Not a big deal.
    - 1.5% instead of 1.8%? Again, not a big deal - it just validates extending the phase as a more valuable tactic.
    - Sacred Shield being 30% less effective? Quite a concern, but nothing we can't handle.

    I'm most concerned about the DR's. My main concern is that it'll stop giving any vengeance once there's a specific number of mobs, making any of the tactics unviable without extremely high gear level (i.e. > 540) and thus relatively high effective DPS.

    The SS change is a little concerning. I recall my SS absorbed around 12M damage or so on my last solo kill, and that'll be 8.4M with the 30% nerf. That's enough to kill me 11.5 times. Overall though, I don't think this change will hurt our soloing ability on the fight. Again, my main concern is the DR's they're adding. Until we've got numbers though, I'm gonna try and not worry.

    The GC change is a massive buff though, so it might balance out. Having it proc more than twice the amount it already does in this fight will mean there's almost never going to be downtime on it once you get to 'wave 4' of the adds. Right now, there are sometimes stretches where it doesn't proc for a while, but this change will reduce that to an extremely rare occurrence.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-03 at 05:04 PM.
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  13. #253
    Would just like to thank the guide creator and the other posters in this thread giving advice on how to do this. I ended up doing the zerg strat (10 minute phase 1) and got the mount on my first attempt!!

    http://i.imgur.com/vmrkliu.jpg

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Flasher View Post
    Would just like to thank the guide creator and the other posters in this thread giving advice on how to do this. I ended up doing the zerg strat (10 minute phase 1) and got the mount on my first attempt!!

    http://i.imgur.com/vmrkliu.jpg
    ANNNNNNND now the thread hates you! :P Congrats, that's awesome.

  15. #255
    Can anyone here help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?

    I had a level 85 paladin laying around, and saw the post by michalus showing a fairly cheap gear set to kill this boss, and decided I'd try it out. I made a few modifications, but this is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ggins/advanced. I also looked through the thread and saw another post by michalus detailing the strategy. I also watched a video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3CtN6_1Q-g) This may be a l2p issue on my part, but I'm really having a tough time with this boss.

    -First off, I'm having problems with infest ticks. The damage I take is EXTREMELY spiky, much more so than the video I linked above. Often, I'll keep 5 holy power in preparation for an infest tick, but the hits from the adds will bring me below 90% hp after dumping the holy power. It seems like this is happening too fast for the game to register that my hp was above 90% (often capped) and the infest kills me or I have to blow LoH (sometimes this happens with LoH as well).

    -Second, I touched on this above, but my damage is very spiky. In phase 1 I'm often getting my low health message (80k ish HP). Word of glory and seal of insight usually bring it back up, but in the video I watched the paladin doesn't ever really go below 90% hp.

    -Also, t1 often kills me if I get to it. On my last kill, the combat log is showing around 5 hits from shambling horrors and lich king from 40k-70k damage. Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying to keep all the adds in front of me during this phase, but I'm still taking a ton of damage from all of them. I usually don't have enough globals to keep my hp up while killing the frozen orbs (due to the spiky damage).

    -Lastly, is there any point in the fight where I should stop using word of glory and start using all my holy power for shield of the righteous?

    If it helps, I'll detail the strat I'm running right now.

    P1 - Keeping SS up, using crusader strike, judgement, avengers shield to generate holy power. Using word of glory when needed. Trying to save holy power before an infest if I'm capped so I can bring my health up in case I take some add damage. Using holy wrath for some damage as well (glyphed).

    T1- Start backpedaling to the middle in preparation for when he hits 70%. Try to keep adds behind me while killing frozen orbs with judgement and shield. I'm not having problems with the frozen orbs since I farm this fight on my death knight.

    Past this point, I usually die to a lot of damage coming in a short period of time. I am keeping SS up at all times.

    Any advice would be nice. Again, this could be a l2p issue. I leveled this paladin via RAF so I just started playing prot last night, on this fight. However, I'm at 27 wipes now and it is starting to get frustrating.

    edit: Well I think I've got phase 1 down. The damage is still really spiky, but as long as I let infest ramp up my vengeance 2 word of glorys usually gets me. Now t1 is really killing me. The silences hurt, even when I'm rotating cooldowns (divine protection, devotion aura, guardian of the ancient kings). I did get 1 15% attempt, but I can't say I reliably get past t1.

    second edit: Well I got him, took a TON of wipes though. Guess I should have listened to the 90 advice and just spammed avengers shield and shield of righteous after the first phase.
    Last edited by babykdog; 2013-08-05 at 11:24 PM.

  16. #256
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    Following on from my earlier comments on the vengeance changes, I've now got some expansion to do now we've got some numbers.

    Vengeance AOE Cap
    This is going to be a huge change. This change alone will need some actual testing, but it could mean that soloing the LK on 25 Heroic may no longer be possible without extremely good gear.

    I don't know the damage values of the bosses. Let's assume these DPS values;
    - Boss DPS: 75000
    - Add DPS: 25000

    These are rough values (pre-mitigation - so not actual), and are what we'll use to calculate vengeance. Note that this graph ISN'T meant to give hard-values, just a comparison between pre-5.4, and post-5.4 - feel free to ignore the values, unless you're comparing percentages. Also note that these values are for the boss and 40 adds;

    (Click for full size)

    Blue Line: Pre 5.4.
    Green Line: Post 5.4.

    I assumed 40 adds. The likelyhood is that you'll end up with many more if you're doing the zerg tactic.

    You can see that it's a linear scale right now (i.e. before 5.4). There's a slight adjustment in the angle between where boss damage starts and add damage starts being calculated - this is just the scaling on the graph and not indicative of it not being linear. With 5.4, this changes dramatically and becomes a very slight incline. It'll continue to climb, but eventually, you'd reach the point of only gaining 1 AP from vengeance if you had enough mobs (though that'd require 25000 adds to occur so it's not a realistic calculation).

    The math formula is something like this;
    (BossDmg + (addDmg/n)*n)*1.5/100

    In programming terms;
    Code:
    TotalDmg := BossDmg;
    AddToGraph(TotalDmg);
    for i := 1 to 40 do
    begin
        TotalDmg := (TotalDmg + (AddDmg/i))*1.5/100;
        AddToGraph(TotalDmg);
    end;

    The previous formula was;
    (BossDmg + (AddDmg*n))*1.8/100

    In programming terms;
    Code:
    TotalDmg := BossDmg;
    AddToGraph(TotalDmg);
    for i := 1 to 40 do
    begin
        TotalDmg := (TotalDmg + AddDmg)*1.5/100;
        AddToGraph(TotalDmg);
    end;

    Based on the values, we're looking at potentially only gaining 14-15% of the vengeance we do right now on LK25H (at least from adds). The 0.3% nerf hits us a little as you can make out where the angle changes near the left side of the graph, but by far the biggest change is the AoE vengeance nerf. I personally think that the 'no vengeance from aoe abilities' will hurt us as well, but it'd only put a slight dent in the total values.

    Basically, we've got about 4-5 weeks (predicted, at most) to get finished with LK25H and get mount, loot, titles, achievements. After that, it looks like it'll be back to going only with a group, or finding another tactic. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that they simply don't want tanks soloing older content. Why the hell is it that DPS are allowed to do so, and don't get nerfed in that content (apparently warlocks, shamans and a few other DPS classes can solo it as well). These vengeance changes make little to no dent in current content, but they make a huge change to older content, especially fights like this. Maybe they're meant to make it 'require more skill' to manage. What they actually do is, or what they appear to do, is make it impossible to manage.

    If I get time, I'll do some comparison graphs for our abilities based on the scaling values used to calculate their damage, healing, shielding, etc (and I'll be able to get actual values since the numbers used to calculate ability damage/healing/shielding are readily available).
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-07 at 01:26 PM.
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  17. #257
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    95% sure that the ghouls don't give vengeance at 90, mobs beneath a certain level (once again, 95% sure 80 fights the threshold) don't give vengeance, as they tend to have such high avoidance rates it could be possible to stack mobs who can't technically hit you and 'cheat' the system. It'd be no different to how we treat ghouls only not for GC.

    Excluding that, the gap really shouldn't be that significant. Along side that, the buff to GC will drastically increase damage output on the encounter, since we either have 30,000 ghouls or at least 3 shamblers and 7 spirits.

    As a whole, I'd be shellshocked if the vengeance changes had even the slightest influence on the LK farming. Not saying it's impossible, but considering how easy people are pushing it over now, it will take a lot more than what's coming in 5.4 to kill this.

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  18. #258
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    EDIT: Won't have numbers until next week unfortunately, due to my tank being 'needed' for an achievement run. If anyone has damage numbers for adds, or a WoL parse of their zerg tactic, I can perform the calculations from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    95% sure that the ghouls don't give vengeance at 90, mobs beneath a certain level (once again, 95% sure 80 fights the threshold) don't give vengeance, as they tend to have such high avoidance rates it could be possible to stack mobs who can't technically hit you and 'cheat' the system. It'd be no different to how we treat ghouls only not for GC.

    Excluding that, the gap really shouldn't be that significant. Along side that, the buff to GC will drastically increase damage output on the encounter, since we either have 30,000 ghouls or at least 3 shamblers and 7 spirits.

    As a whole, I'd be shellshocked if the vengeance changes had even the slightest influence on the LK farming. Not saying it's impossible, but considering how easy people are pushing it over now, it will take a lot more than what's coming in 5.4 to kill this.
    Are you sure about that? I've read it, but never looked into whether it's actually the case or not. I'll take your word for it. I've changed the values for this next graph;
    Boss DPS: 700K
    Add DPS: 100K
    Number of mobs: Boss+15

    These are 'realistic' unmitigated damage values since vengeance is based upon that. They're still guesses, but I figure they're good guesses;


    You can see that the graph is still scaling more favourably for 5.3, but it still adds up to a 61% reduction in vengeance gained.

    I'll get to work on the vengeance-ability graphs later today. Since I'll probably be killing LK25H again later this afternoon, I'll also have a video of it, and thus I can do a graph based on damage-in to compare current vengeance with 5.4 vengeance (since I can have a 'damage TPS' graph visible from Recount, work out rough unmitigated damage from that, and then work values from there). I can also attempt to draw a graph for DPS out based upon the vengeance change AND the GC change (again, I'll have a realtime DPS graph from recount). Likelyhood is I won't draw it 'per second', but instead just draw it based upon 30-60 second intervals. I could use WoL, but I figure that I'd prefer to do things my own way.

    Essentially, I'll have some graphs based on actual values later on today or tomorrow.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-07 at 07:49 PM.
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  19. #259
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    Honestly.. looking at Asians that are soloing it on some funny classes like shamans or priests.. I don't think if soloing it on lvl90 will be a must-do-as-prot matter.
    Got my 541 Zerat last week, gave it a shot today. Got to halfway of T2 before failing on my first attempt. Atm 534ilvl, probably will be easy doable at 540-545.

    And about formulas.
    First of all, I expect mobs to be ordered descending in their dps. What do I mean. I can't imagine situation that LK spawns dozen ghouls before shambler, and ghouls as first have 80% vengeance multiplier and 12th shambler 10% multiplier (very "lets say" values). Thus few thoughts below.

    For lvl90 nothing but shamblers and boss matter. Ghouls dmg is somewhere around 0, they are just source of GC procs. Usually I'm taking berserked shamblers on my back and ghouls in front of me - 2in1 win. Btw seems to me there is 5 or 3 level difference cap, over which mobs are not giving vengeance. Would need a confirmation, almost sure I saw that number in some blue post ages ago, but at 1am after 4hrs of raiding cba to find it now.
    I have no experience in soloing it on lvl80, but if old instances won't be affected with 50%hp vengeance cap, they will be able to do it. Dmg done by ghouls compared to their level and hp is significant enough. In case of 50%hp cap at 25HC, they will be unable to solo it (as mentioned few posts back, I'm keeping 1% for some fanatic guy that will do it with 70k vengeance thanks to GC boost).
    I'm bit affraid about my army of 85 paladins. At 85 ghouls give some vengeance (had a chance to check it today, 1 ghouls is around 1k vengeance when pulled alone - wiped LK and ghoul alive left on the platform), but insignificant compared to boss with shamblers. It is possible that it will need more gear, but should be doable. I'm not rly affraid about AoE nerf. Usualy I'm at around 250k vengeance (on my lvl85 palas) before defile, and around 280k in defile + winter (keep in mind next and next shamblers berserking 6mins after their spawn).
    Last edited by Michalus; 2013-08-07 at 11:37 PM.

  20. #260
    Hey guys I just have a few questions about soloing it at level 85 as a prot pally (425 ILVL):
    First off, does anyone have a macro that will automatically target ice spheres first, then the lich king if there are no ice spheres alive? I thought i saw one but i cant seem to find it now.
    How long should i keep the adds alive from P1? like should i kill them at the end of P2?
    actually thats all the questions i have, but any other tips for soloing it at 85 would be appreciated!

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