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  1. #281
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalus View Post
    Maybe, in short future, it's next boss to be soloed by taking him through berserk
    The values on the graph are then 316800 < 5.4, and 158069 > 5.4. So basically, yes, that does look like the next valid 'zerg tactic' for the new patch

    Perhaps spend 15 mins in the first phase and then go to town on him with > 100 mobs (which increasing from 70 mobs, means the numbers are 396000 and 158958 respectively - yeah, less than 1K vengeance for another 30 mobs).

    I should mention that my numbers DO NOT apply to the normal strategy. It's absolutely going to still be soloable provided you kill off the ghouls before FM, etc. but the zerg strat looks much less viable.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-15 at 05:42 PM.
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  2. #282
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    I'm like 100% sure, while berserk, vengeance goes to cap atm. Got over 550k while driving Putricide to berserk. Compared to Putri, LK hits like a beast while berserked - melees for ~200k, soul reapers for like 500. Imo it's guaranteed cap.
    Will be hard to survive that (however last time I tried was over 20 ilvls past), but we have more and more gear. Maybe with keeping cooldowns for the time of gaining decent vengeance, and good timing, it will be doable.

  3. #283
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    I was under impression that "grey" (level 81 and lower for level 90 player) mobs won't give you any vengeance at all. That said, Ghouls won't contribute to anything but GC procs.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  4. #284
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I was under impression that "grey" (level 81 and lower for level 90 player) mobs won't give you any vengeance at all. That said, Ghouls won't contribute to anything but GC procs.
    This is true and was verified a while ago, posted it the last time this line of thought was brought up.

    -

    Went to test it on the PTR, since the there's nothing to suggest this fight will be made any harder come next patch. Quite the opposite is possible with the GC change. Sadly I need to do normal mode first on PTR due to the copying system. Might do it next week, but I don't really see the fuss.

    Depending on whether or not the nerfs were done on a mechanics or coding level, the lose of Defile and Remoreless winter will hurt quite a bit. The adds will cost maybe 50k vengeance all up, a hefty loss but will be supplemented by additional GC procs. The base ilevel may be pushed up a bit without defile/rw, but with the catch up systems and such in place, I don't see that as a point of worry either.

    All in all, rather than spending your time graphing estimations and preaching doom, it might be better off either testing it on PTR or just kicking back and not worrying about it.

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  5. #285
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I was under impression that "grey" (level 81 and lower for level 90 player) mobs won't give you any vengeance at all. That said, Ghouls won't contribute to anything but GC procs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    This is true and was verified a while ago, posted it the last time this line of thought was brought up.
    Having done some of the other parts of ICC as Protection, including some of the trash that only consisted of grey mobs, I absolutely got vengeance from them. It wasn't a lot, sorta 2-3K for a large packs, but it was still there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Went to test it on the PTR, since the there's nothing to suggest this fight will be made any harder come next patch. Quite the opposite is possible with the GC change. Sadly I need to do normal mode first on PTR due to the copying system. Might do it next week, but I don't really see the fuss.

    Depending on whether or not the nerfs were done on a mechanics or coding level, the lose of Defile and Remoreless winter will hurt quite a bit. The adds will cost maybe 50k vengeance all up, a hefty loss but will be supplemented by additional GC procs. The base ilevel may be pushed up a bit without defile/rw, but with the catch up systems and such in place, I don't see that as a point of worry either.

    All in all, rather than spending your time graphing estimations and preaching doom, it might be better off either testing it on PTR or just kicking back and not worrying about it.
    With all due respect, you're one of the best geared tankadins in the world. You're on 546 with almost all of your gear being Heroic ToT, and several H-TF gear. You've already got a massive advantage compared to much of the tankadin community. Given your gear, I imagine that the normal method isn't a problem. You don't have to worry so much about bringing adds down to a specific amount before the phase change in order to finish them off in transition. With gear like mine, at 502, I do have to worry about it because that tactic is not only extremely difficult to pull off due to the lower overall DPS (meaning that it's not uncommon for some ghouls to still be alive when we're getting ported to FM), the zerg tactic is the only real way that we CAN manage the fight without wiping 15 times because 1 ghoul was still alive and at 10%.

    While you're sat on over 45% haste and almost 720K HP unbuffed, people like me are sat on around 20% haste and less than 550K HP (i.e. your unbuffed HP is higher than my HP while in ICC). Your low-end weapon damage is almost the same as my top-end weapon damage. Now, as you say, the catch-up mechanic will definitely help, and before long we'll all be sat on 543 2/2 gear, and 536 2/2 SoO LFR gear (i.e. weapons, trinkets, other slots probably not filled by Timeless Isle) so it'll be less of a concern, but for the time before that, it's something I have to consider. I have to wonder whether the changes will reduce my ability to solo content I literally only found out I could solo just a few weeks ago. For example, you consider 'low gear level' to be < 525. For me, that's close to what I'll be able to get in the next patch, and currently it's not something I can actually hit (despite the numerous 522 rewards I do have access to from world bosses and rep) -- I consider < 480 to be a low gear level, but others would no doubt see that differently too.

    I'm not concerned that those in current Heroic, or even normal gear will be unable to manage it, I'm only concerned whether those of us in lower gear levels will still be able to pull it off in the most efficient way possible, or whether we'll have to go back to the normal method. If it does come to that, I'm not too concerned as I'll just adapt the macros to include the ghouls (i.e. Icy Spheres > Lich King > Drudge Ghoul as the priority), but it's more about whether the zerg tactic is actually going to continue to be viable for me.

    If the ghouls didn't cause insta-death when getting ported due to what I assume is a bug, I wouldn't even have done any theory on what the future holds. After the nerf to Vengeance back near the start of MoP (the one that meant popping AD and standing in Mimiron's rockets suddenly didn't give a massive boost to vengeance) that almost made me outright quit the game, you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little on edge.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-08-16 at 02:07 PM.
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  6. #286
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    With all due respect, you're one of the best geared tankadins in the world. You're on 546 with almost all of your gear being Heroic ToT, and several H-TF gear... After the nerf to Vengeance back near the start of MoP (the one that meant popping AD and standing in Mimiron's rockets suddenly didn't give a massive boost to vengeance) that almost made me outright quit the game, you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little on edge.
    Oh boo hoo, so you can't cheese mechanics to solo content that most of the "little people" require 40 more item levels to solo, wah, I'm gonna quit the game.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    --QUOTE--
    There really is no need to be snide about it. I also love how you selectively ignored everything between "H-TF Gear" and "After the nerf", completely missing the point that an earlier nerf almost made me quit and this latest one has me concerned because of that. I never said I'm gonna quit the game over this set of changes, just that earlier changes had made me consider it quite a lot.

    Next time, if you must insist on 'contributing', do it in a less bitchy manner.
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  8. #288
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Look, the sniping is entirely unnecessary. Let's keep it civil, please.

  9. #289
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    The 'normal' method of doing p3 isn't difficult, most of the people here praising the zerg strategy were doing it as was initially posted in the OP before people started suggesting bringing 10 minutes worth of ghouls into p3. A number of people have gotten there first kills from the zerg method at lower ilevels, and that's great. But needing to move on won't cause the sky to fall.

    I did HM LK the same way I did it initially, and the same way I've done it every week, on a new paladin just last week with a solid 3-4 minutes left on enrage.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hoice/advanced

    Now, I'm not going to stick my neck out and say there's no chance this toon will be unable to do it (double negatives, woo). But certainly between the buff to GC on this encounter and the increased availability of high ilevel gear (most of the 'tankadin' community will be well above my current ilevel come next tier), no one who's doing it now will miss the chance to do it next time.

    The players new to farming LK next tier will likely have higher ilevels due to valor gear and lfr. So they shouldn't struggle to do the fight normally.

    I don't know where the stigma came from that killing it normally was in anyway inferior to brute forcing it with 100 ghouls. You're still doing the hardest part of the fight in the same way, p3 isn't that difficult with some basic CD management to avoid gibs.

    Regardless, if you think my stance is based merely on the gear of my main paladin, you are grossly mistaken. I have paladins at 470, 485, 510 and 546 ilevel, along with an 80 twink. I have a pretty wide field of view for protection at the moment.

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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    I have paladins at 470, 485, 510 and 546 ilevel, along with an 80 twink. I have a pretty wide field of view for protection at the moment.
    This is something i will never understand. Roll the same toon over and over again and guess what, it feels always the same .... why not make something more productive with your time?

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by moveth View Post
    I ruined the video for myself. I looked at your recount during the beginning and realized the Damage was updating to the beat of the song, then I couldnt pay attention anymore. lol
    Haha daaamn you! You ruined it for me now aswell...

  12. #292
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunamor View Post
    This is something i will never understand. Roll the same toon over and over again and guess what, it feels always the same .... why not make something more productive with your time?
    The two lower 90's were used for CMs and assisting another guild last tier, only took about 3-4 days each to level them.

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  13. #293
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    Gave it a try on PTR on my 85 toon. Due to copy fail ofc on normal. Over 5mins of P1 got like 35k vengeance (true, normal hits less). Died in transition - not enough heal from SoI/whatever due to low vengeance. It feels like targets attacking you aren't sorted by dmg they do - gonna ask about it on ptr forums - vengeance from LK looks ok, but first shambler, after the drudge ghouls, is barely giving vengeance. Killing drudge ghouls in P1 may be a solution for that, but probly will be a fail anyway.

    Seems to me 5.4 will end soloing it on lvl<90.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Oh boo hoo, so you can't cheese mechanics to solo content that most of the "little people" require 40 more item levels to solo, wah, I'm gonna quit the game.
    Well bro they want all to play new patch...also they destroy everyting in game,i can only say 1 word i quit today but now forever,cya guys gl&hf.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post

    Why would I want a mount I can’t see?
    Good question.
    I lost it at this part.


    10/10

    Excellent job on the joke and kill.

    /PaladinHighFive
    Last edited by MrPaladinGuy; 2013-08-18 at 01:47 PM.

  16. #296
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Killed it in a little under 13 minutes on PTR on my first attempt.

    Things that have been changed:
    - Infest no longer grants vengeance
    - Defile, Remorseless Winter are no longer giving vengeance
    - Vile spirits were giving insignificant amounts of vengeance

    All in all I spent almost the whole fight at 25k vengeance, peaking at around 32k.

    The GC buff offsets a lot of this but damage wise it was very reminiscent of my 5.1 kills. Which is worrying.

    That being said, the SoTR uptime now makes damage intake much lower, so the enrage should be a solid save for people who won't be in 545 gear for a while into 5.4.

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  17. #297
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Vile spirits were giving insignificant amounts of vengeance
    Is this a side effect of the 1/N nerf to vengeance? If so even for current content things I can't imagine it affecting NPC abilities such as this is a good thing.

  18. #298
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Is this a side effect of the 1/N nerf to vengeance? If so even for current content things I can't imagine it affecting NPC abilities such as this is a good thing.
    I'd say it'd be a safe bet. Technically on the coding side of things the explosion is dealt from the spirits, so it should suffer the reduction. It could also be connected to the 'aoe damage no longer grants vengeance' aspect of the changes. I hesitated saying 'no vengeance' because my vengeance was constantly varying by ~2k to either side. Both are valid possibilities.

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  19. #299
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    I'd say it'd be a safe bet. Technically on the coding side of things the explosion is dealt from the spirits, so it should suffer the reduction. It could also be connected to the 'aoe damage no longer grants vengeance' aspect of the changes. I hesitated saying 'no vengeance' because my vengeance was constantly varying by ~2k to either side. Both are valid possibilities.
    It's bad when changes have such side effects. For instance ground avoidable AoE being distinguished from unavoidable special attacks including AoE. And dealing with attacks coming technically from multiple targets but in reality just from "tanking" one thing :\

  20. #300
    Alright, finally managed to find the time to get into ICC, easy solo'd as 506iLvl, BIG PROPS to @Synthaxx for all the help! <3

    It went down on the 2nd try tho, because on the first boss was ~15% with 10sec left on transition, but tunneling much didn't noticed the ice thingie... :/

    Fully reforged/gemmed/consumables for Haste, sitting at ~24% haste, 711k hp.

    No mount tho :/
    Last edited by Ktperry; 2013-08-24 at 09:17 PM.

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