World Record Siege of Niuzao Temple - 10:17

[Criptos]

...No. Not what I was saying at all. Because you don't fix the "exploit". You're at a very high level of play if you're getting times like this, you will find out about this and have no problem doing it.



This right here. How much you want to bet there is probably an exploit in some form in at least half of the available challenge modes? A lot of people doing them are probably more inclined to keep their tactics a secret, for the same reasons why World first raiding guilds don't release their videos right away. And how much you want to bet they will continue to be found for the indefinite future? They going to wipe the boards every time? No.

• Fix bugs, wipe leaderboards: No persistance. People have to go all over again and reestablish all of their times. Really not acceptable.
• Fix bugs, don't wipe leaderboards: New groups are put at a disadvantage at getting top times, something I already mentioned in my first post here
• Don't fix bugs, don't wipe leaderboards: People getting top times do the research and find the ways to use the "exploits". Everyone is capable of the same "exploits". I really don't see this as a problem, or at the very least it is preferable to the alternatives above. Unless an exploit appears that is only capable by a particular class or spec, which is not what is being discussed here.

I can't speak for everyone voicing against the tactics of resetting with the buff. If there is an exploit w.e. people will use it to get a better time. My only problem with this paticular bug / exploit is that you're essentially resetting your timer mid run. It's as if you're doing a 400M sprint, then reset your timer at the 100M mark.

The instance would not have been that quick if you didn't have the buff from before the reset which took more TIME to get, saying it was done in 10:17m is false.

[torin856]

I didn't read the whole topic but there are lots of so named "exploits" in challenge modes. I'll name some:

- Scholomance, transforming in normal, using it on challenge
- Shado-Pan Monastery, using one dead body 4 times
- Siege of Niuzao Temple, same like the last one but with the gong
- Scarlet Monastery, mind control
- this one

And I am not a pro at it so I am sure there are even more of them.

The biggest one is the Scarlet Monastery one, because it needs one particular class, any setup doesn't contain DK cannot do that.
I think these should NOT be removed. All of them are easily understandable and everyone can reproduce them if he/she wants to. They don't act like a typical exploit, they don't trivialize anything, they just give you a chance to do better time. Some of them, like for example this one actually makes the challenge even harder and more complex. Another example, we spent like 3 hours to do the DK mind control trick through the whole instance, then we said f*** it and did the instance on normal way (okay, we used the MC on the first boss) and oneshotted the gold.

Long story short, these tricks give a chance for better times, everyone can use them, so they shouldn't be removed (or at least shouldn't be removed without ladder resets). Just Blizzard should post that they allow us to use them so everyone who wants to compete could use them.

[Secrecy]

Do you people not realise that this is the most interest a challenge mode time has got, pretty much since release? This is the reason this sort of thing needs to stay around, some group shaving a second off someone else isn't interesting, discovering methods like this is.

[Criptos]

I didn't read the whole topic but there are lots of so named "exploits" in challenge modes. I'll name some:

- Scholomance, transforming in normal, using it on challenge
- Shado-Pan Monastery, using one dead body 4 times
- Siege of Niuzao Temple, same like the last one but with the gong
- Scarlet Monastery, mind control
- this one

And I am not a pro at it so I am sure there are even more of them.

The biggest one is the Scarlet Monastery one, because it needs one particular class, any setup doesn't contain DK cannot do that.
I think these should NOT be removed. All of them are easily understandable and everyone can reproduce them if he/she wants to. They don't act like a typical exploit, they don't trivialize anything, they just give you a chance to do better time. Some of them, like for example this one actually makes the challenge even harder and more complex. Another example, we spent like 3 hours to do the DK mind control trick through the whole instance, then we said f*** it and did the instance on normal way (okay, we used the MC on the first boss) and oneshotted the gold.

Long story short, these tricks give a chance for better times, everyone can use them, so they shouldn't be removed (or at least shouldn't be removed without ladder resets). Just Blizzard should post that they allow us to use them so everyone who wants to compete could use them.

The issue isn't the "exploits" all the other ones you listed, aside from the scholo thing, which you could have the flask filled from hours before. You do during the course of the timer in the instance. This one with the ooze buff, you do work IN the instance with time ticking down, and then essentially reset your timer mid run. The timer reset seems to be the major issue most people have with it.

[Baracuda]

I don't understand why people defend stacking the buff, "it doesn't matter if they cheat, anyone can do it". I don't even run challenge modes but in general you shouldn't have to cheat to win, *cough* tour de france *cough*.

[Secrecy]

I don't understand why people defend stacking the buff, "it doesn't matter if they cheat, anyone can do it". I don't even run challenge modes but in general you shouldn't have to cheat to win, *cough* tour de france *cough*.

Because it's not cheating? There is no rule book for challenge modes in WoW.

[torin856]

I don't understand why people defend stacking the buff, "it doesn't matter if they cheat, anyone can do it". I don't even run challenge modes but in general you shouldn't have to cheat to win, *cough* tour de france *cough*.

You can say that it is not intended, but it is absolutely not cheating!

This is a "clever use of game mechanics" VS "not intended" debate, nothing more.

When you reset a challenge these things happen:
- you teleport to the beginning, even the dead bodies
- 3+ min CDs reset
- all mobs reset
- timed and kill counters reset
- all pets despawn

But neither buffs nor debuffs reset. So instead of making a snapshot of your character at the start and reset to that state blizzard decided that buffs/debuffs shouldn't reset. So it is absolutely not cheating, they didn't do anything against the rules.

[Senen]

When you reset a challenge these things happen:
- you teleport to the beginning, even the dead bodies
- 3+ min CDs reset
- all mobs reset
- timed and kill counters reset
- all pets despawn

But neither buffs nor debuffs reset. So instead of making a snapshot of your character at the start and reset to that state blizzard decided that buffs/debuffs shouldn't reset. So it is absolutely not cheating, they didn't do anything against the rules.

5+ min CDs, actually. 3 min CDs don't reset.
Also, the 10min CD of invisibility potion doesn''t reset.
And the bl debuff reset too.

On a slightly related note, the soulstone buff doesn't reset, so you can have two brez with a single warlock.

[Sealed]

some group shaving a second off someone else isn't interesting, discovering methods like this is.

Funny, I think the opposite. Perfecting your execution to beat your record ever so slightly seems way more interesting to me than looking for exploits.

[Secrecy]

Funny, I think the opposite. Perfecting your execution to beat your record ever so slightly seems way more interesting to me than looking for exploits.

I'm talking about interest from the community, not just the people actually doing the run. As I said, this run has caused more interest in challenge modes than anything else bar the first group to get full gold.

[clampy]

Oh lord here we go.

Just get out.

They found a bug which allowed them to keep your stacks after a reset. Something that is not intended. They used this bug to their advantage (Which by the way, is the definition of an exploit as far as games go).

Killing adds at the start of the video is a part of your run and such should count as part of your time as well. The entire video is 12:40 with the start missing as well, plus the lack of extra debuff stacks. The actual run took much longer, so your time shouldn't count.

[Flawless101]

It's hardly a bug, it just doesn't remove buffs or debuffs. Working as designed.

[Cattlehunter]

This right here. How much you want to bet there is probably an exploit in some form in at least half of the available challenge modes? A lot of people doing them are probably more inclined to keep their tactics a secret, for the same reasons why World first raiding guilds don't release their videos right away. And how much you want to bet they will continue to be found for the indefinite future? They going to wipe the boards every time? No.

• Fix bugs, wipe leaderboards: No persistance. People have to go all over again and reestablish all of their times. Really not acceptable.
• Fix bugs, don't wipe leaderboards: New groups are put at a disadvantage at getting top times, something I already mentioned in my first post here
• Don't fix bugs, don't wipe leaderboards: People getting top times do the research and find the ways to use the "exploits". Everyone is capable of the same "exploits". I really don't see this as a problem, or at the very least it is preferable to the alternatives above. Unless an exploit appears that is only capable by a particular class or spec, which is not what is being discussed here.

Challenge modes need seasons, with persistent leaderboards when one is over. That way you can fix bug and reset times without destining exploiters to always sit at the top for the rest of history after the exploits are fixed, and it doesn't diminish the achievements of the people with the top times, as those are forever remembered. It also deals with the serious issue of class changes. Honestly, I don't understand why seasons wasn't a core part of the feature from implementation.

[Navitas]

It's hardly a bug, it just doesn't remove buffs or debuffs. Working as designed.

You keep telling yourself that. It's clearly cheating. You can call it anything you like, creative use of game mechanics, whatever you like but it's clearly not intended or you'd just have the buff when you walked into the instance. Not stacking it up, reseting and starting again.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:00 PM ----------

They found a bug which allowed them to keep your stacks after a reset. Something that is not intended. They used this bug to their advantage (Which by the way, is the definition of an exploit as far as games go)

This guys knows what he's talking about. The rest defending this cheating are clearly deluded.

[torin856]

"They found a bug which allowed them to keep your stacks after a reset. Something that is not intended. They used this bug to their advantage (Which by the way, is the definition of an exploit as far as games go)"
This guys knows what he's talking about. The rest defending this cheating are clearly deluded.

Then what else should count as the time of the run? Eating food for buff? Buffing up? Crafting flasks? Or even leveling up the profession for it? Maybe grinding the klaxxi repu for the ambers? Or even leveling up characters? Or getting the 463+ gear?
Of course I am joking, but please realize that this is not as "black and white" as you think.

[Caribald]

The idiots who complain about keeping the debuff: Everyone else is doing the same. These guys did it better.

[Navitas]

The idiots who complain about keeping the debuff: Everyone else is doing the same. These guys did it better.

One person cheating vs everyone cheating is still cheating. Hey Lance, how's it going?

[Secrecy]

One person cheating vs everyone cheating is still cheating. Hey Lance, how's it going?

This word is still getting thrown around, how is it cheating? Where are the rules stating that this is not allowed?

[Navitas]

This word is still getting thrown around, how is it cheating? Where are the rules stating that this is not allowed?

What word would use? clever use of game mechanics? bug? exploit? Regardless of the terminology used it's still wrong. Guess we just need to wait and see what Blizz have to say if so many people have actually reported this.

[Flawless101]

Clever use of game mechanics. This is hardly unique to this one buff/debuff that would actually make it a true bug, just because this is beneficial it's taken advantage off. Going by what ion hazzikostas in his watercooler blog on when it becomes an exploit.