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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Xih View Post
    There is nothing stopping anyone else doing exactly what we did. It's a common denominator amongst us all, it's a level playing field, I'm not sure whats so wrong with that (if anything?) and why you don't understand it, since this kinda of thing is extremely common with speed running in any game.
    There's nothing stopping anyone from using any bug in the game, but that doesn't make it right. Clearly since you beat the previous best by 2 minutes, not everyone is using this exploit.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because resetting an instance isn't the same as shadow melding out of combat. Resetting the instance is supposed to be exactly the same as if you just zoned into a fresh instance. It isn't supposed to allow you to farm a stacking debuff then zerg and kite to keep that debuff. That is why it is cheating because something that should be cleared isn't being cleared.

    They aren't resetting a mob, they are resetting an instance. There is a big difference between the two.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:20 AM ----------



    I'm not denying that they ran it the fastest. But there is a huge difference between cheating to do something and legitimately doing something. Cheating isn't a requirement of speed running. They are exploiting the fact that a debuff isn't resetting when they reset the entire instance. Great they can cheat their way into the fast time. That isn't something to brag about when you have to cheat in order to get 1st place.

    Why can't they speed run without using a cheat? They would still be doing it the fastest. They would still be using every legitimate edge within the game to do so.
    Cheating would insinuate that the other people competing can't do what you did to achieve the same result. That is not at all the case with any speedrunning glitches ever.

    You seriously misunderstand this concept.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scot View Post
    There's nothing stopping anyone from using any bug in the game, but that doesn't make it right. Clearly since you beat the previous best by 2 minutes, not everyone is using this exploit.
    They will be. When something groundbreaking is discovered in Ocarina of Time speedrunning, the thousands of other people that run it adapt and continue to progress forward. That's how speedrunning works. It's a constant evolution of discoveries.

    There is a HUGE difference between one person using an exploit/glitch vs. another person not using one in a head to head situation.

    This is NOT the case with speedrunning, where one person faces the game and everything possible that it contains.
    Last edited by skitzy129; 2013-02-17 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #43
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xih View Post
    There is nothing stopping anyone else doing exactly what we did. It's a common denominator amongst us all, it's a level playing field, I'm not sure whats so wrong with that (if anything?) and why you don't understand it, since this kinda of thing is extremely common with speed running in any game.
    Because it is done using a bug/exploit. Just because everyone can do it doesn't make it right. Just because everyone now has to do it to beat your time doesn't make it right. Only being able to do something through a bug or exploit is cheating your way to something. Its wrong because it is cheating. It is only common in speed running in other games because once one person does it there is no governing body to undo it. Which means for you to get your epeen you need to also cheat.

    That still doesn't make cheating right.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    Cheating would insinuate that the other people competing can't do what you did to achieve the same result.
    You have a very imaginative interpretation of the term "cheating". Most would not agree.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot View Post
    You have a very imaginative interpretation of the term "cheating". Most would not agree.
    You're very wrong that most wouldn't agree, because speedrunning is huge and this is a constant thought process in every single game ran with the intention of speedrunning.

  6. #46
    I have a feeling you guys were watching my stream when we were theorycrafting this exact same strategy, though maybe not as there is something you didn't do that you could have done in order to get an even better time. Grats though, put your effort into other CMs now! -Saved

  7. #47
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because resetting an instance isn't the same as shadow melding out of combat. Resetting the instance is supposed to be exactly the same as if you just zoned into a fresh instance. It isn't supposed to allow you to farm a stacking debuff then zerg and kite to keep that debuff. That is why it is cheating because something that should be cleared isn't being cleared.

    They aren't resetting a mob, they are resetting an instance. There is a big difference between the two.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:20 AM ----------



    I'm not denying that they ran it the fastest. But there is a huge difference between cheating to do something and legitimately doing something. Cheating isn't a requirement of speed running. They are exploiting the fact that a debuff isn't resetting when they reset the entire instance. Great they can cheat their way into the fast time. That isn't something to brag about when you have to cheat in order to get 1st place.

    Why can't they speed run without using a cheat? They would still be doing it the fastest. They would still be using every legitimate edge within the game to do so.
    welcome to every single one of the fastest times for each dungeon. they are all done with some sort of exploit/clever use of game mechanics

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    You're very wrong that most wouldn't agree, because speedrunning is huge and this is a constant thought process in every single game ran with the intention of speedrunning.
    Wow. I had no idea that speed running in video games was so huge that a majority of the world's population is both involved with it and agrees with its interpretation of cheating.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot View Post
    Wow. I had no idea that speed running in video games was so huge that a majority of the world's population is both involved with it and agrees with its interpretation of cheating.
    The concept of relevance is completely lost on you.

  10. #50
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    Cheating would insinuate that the other people competing can't do what you did to achieve the same result. That is not at all the case with any speedrunning glitches ever.You seriously misunderstand this concept.
    Really? A cheat is only something that no one else can do? Using a bug, that everyone can abuse, is still cheating. Claiming you are the best, fastest, whatever at something because you did it through a cheat is lame. You didn't legitimately get the fastest speed run so it doesn't count and bragging about it is just silly. Of course you can get the fastest time when you are the first to cheat. Duh that isn't doing anything amazing.


    They will be.
    That isn't an excuse for why cheating is legitimate. Because the only reason why others have to cheat is because someone did it in the first place. And the only way to beat a time that someone cheated to get is by cheating. Because everyone is forced to do it to stay competitive isn't a reason for why it is okay to do something.

    If you never cheated in the first place then no one else would have to cheat. Just because a game has a bug that allows you to do something doesn't mean it is okay to do it. This isn't the first time that someone has used a bug for a gain. Why you think speed running is different then any other competitive activity is boggling. Why is cheating okay in speed running but not in PvP? PvE? Any other competitive sport/action.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    welcome to every single one of the fastest times for each dungeon. they are all done with some sort of exploit/clever use of game mechanics
    That is so far from true it isn't funny. Back when my group had a majority of the fastest times in the world (and the only difference between those times and the current times is that we haven't had a group to go back and just push ourselves harder) not a single instance had a 'clever use of mechanics' with the exception of SM (and even then, I did not take part in that one). We just pulled big, pushed DPS hard and that's that. You don't need to exploit to get good times, it's possible without. Feel free to go watch the videos, too they're all still some of the fastest times in the world.

    Having a priest for heals is pretty OP for getting the absolute best of the best.

  12. #52
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    welcome to every single one of the fastest times for each dungeon. they are all done with some sort of exploit/clever use of game mechanics
    There is a difference between clever use of game mechanics, and resetting the challenge mode timer to keep stacking a debuff. IF they simply kited resins around to get keep the debuff as long as possible slowly building stacks then that is clever use of mechanics. Doing something that you can't do with out resetting your timer multiple times is cheating.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    The concept of relevance is completely lost on you.
    No, you're trying to defend cheating to people who define cheating in the traditional way by saying "its not cheating because we say its not". So, the common definition of cheating (which yours is most certainly not) is very relevant.

    Besides, who cares about zelda? Its a single player game with no continuing support. WoW is a constantly changing game with continuous patching, and they often remove unintended features, such as this bug. So what happens when they patch it out? The people who exploited it just win forever and no one will ever have a chance to beat them?

  14. #54

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Really? A cheat is only something that no one else can do? Using a bug, that everyone can abuse, is still cheating. Claiming you are the best, fastest, whatever at something because you did it through a cheat is lame. You didn't legitimately get the fastest speed run so it doesn't count and bragging about it is just silly. Of course you can get the fastest time when you are the first to cheat. Duh that isn't doing anything amazing.




    That isn't an excuse for why cheating is legitimate. Because the only reason why others have to cheat is because someone did it in the first place. And the only way to beat a time that someone cheated to get is by cheating. Because everyone is forced to do it to stay competitive isn't a reason for why it is okay to do something.

    If you never cheated in the first place then no one else would have to cheat. Just because a game has a bug that allows you to do something doesn't mean it is okay to do it. This isn't the first time that someone has used a bug for a gain. Why you think speed running is different then any other competitive activity is boggling. Why is cheating okay in speed running but not in PvP? PvE? Any other competitive sport/action.
    You clearly don't comprehend what cheating actually is so I'm done discussing this with you. I hope someday you figure it out so you can truly appreciate how great speedrunning is.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot View Post
    There's nothing stopping anyone from using any bug in the game, but that doesn't make it right. Clearly since you beat the previous best by 2 minutes, not everyone is using this exploit.
    Or they didn't micromanage like we did.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot View Post
    No, you're trying to defend cheating to people who define cheating in the traditional way by saying "its not cheating because we say its not". So, the common definition of cheating (which yours is most certainly not) is very relevant.

    Besides, who cares about zelda? Its a single player game with no continuing support. WoW is a constantly changing game with continuous patching, and they often remove unintended features, such as this bug. So what happens when they patch it out? The people who exploited it just win forever and no one will ever have a chance to beat them?
    Ask Cosmo fans who cares about Zelda. Only tens of thousands of people that watch WR attempts live.

    Ask any of them if the runners are cheating.

    And Blizzard said they weren't going to do anything to challenge modes, because "fixing" things like this destroys the legitimacy of the leaderboard and the history of its progression. Even Blizzard understands speedrunning progression. Why can't you?

  18. #58
    Well done, that time is amazing! Ignore the cheating trolls, I have a strong feeling jealousy is in play here.

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    You clearly don't comprehend what cheating actually is so I'm done discussing this with you. I hope someday you figure it out so you can truly appreciate how great speedrunning is.
    You keep saying I don't know what cheating is while you keep saying that you have to cheat in order to properly do a speed run. It sounds like we all know what cheating is, you just think its fine to cheat while speed running. I'm saying that cheating ruins speed running because it forces everyone to have to cheat in order to beat the time of someone that cheated.

    If you don't consider keeping a stacking damage buff (applied through a debuff) while resetting the timer multiple times as not cheating then you are truly the one that has no concept of what a cheat is. They are starting the clock over again while keeping things from attempts they let the clock run down in. That isn't a speed run in 10:17 seconds because it doesn't count any of the time they spent getting the debuff to stack. It isn't an accurate speed run because they spent longer doing the run then the actual clock count.

    No matter how you want to deny cheating you can't deny the fact that they spent longer then 10:17 to do their run. So either way it isn't a true worlds fastest time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thireyn View Post
    Well done, that time is amazing! Ignore the cheating trolls, I have a strong feeling jealousy is in play here.
    The time isn't an accurate reflection of the actual time involved. Notice how the video of their 10:17 run is longer then the actual run? It isn't as amazing a time when you actual time them based on actual time involved doing the run. It has nothing to do with jealousy but everything to do with honesty and giving actual credit for fastest run where it is deserved.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2013-02-17 at 05:10 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You keep saying I don't know what cheating is while you keep saying that you have to cheat in order to properly do a speed run. It sounds like we all know what cheating is, you just think its fine to cheat while speed running. I'm saying that cheating ruins speed running because it forces everyone to have to cheat in order to beat the time of someone that cheated.

    If you don't consider keeping a stacking damage buff (applied through a debuff) while resetting the timer multiple times as not cheating then you are truly the one that has no concept of what a cheat is. They are starting the clock over again while keeping things from attempts they let the clock run down in. That isn't a speed run in 10:17 seconds because it doesn't count any of the time they spent getting the debuff to stack. It isn't an accurate speed run because they spent longer doing the run then the actual clock count.

    No matter how you want to deny cheating you can't deny the fact that they spent longer then 10:17 to do their run. So either way it isn't a true worlds fastest time.
    The rules of speedrunning are as follows:

    Don't use third party software/hardware or anything else outside of the game to gain an edge.
    Get from the beginning to the end.

    That's it. Anything else that can possibly happen is fair game.
    I'm sorry if you can't accept what speedrunning is.

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