Why would you pick a monk tank?

[Apoulsen]

Hi everyone, this thread is not meant to be a "whiny" thread about brewmasters.

But I have a few questions for other tanks, healers or raid leaders out there
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my brewmaster (link in signature, but 498 ilvl).
But I just can't see why you would take a a brewmaster, compared to a warrior or paladin? Even a blood dk is better tanking wise, however they have no real raid CD's like warrior/paladin. Druids are in a bad place right now, but they still got tranq and innervate.

Monks got the Statue and in someway Chi Wave, how ever Chi wave isn't used that often since you have to keep shuffle close to 100%.
The only time I can use Chi Wave is when the other tank is tanking, but still it's not that high raid help compared to what warrior and paladin have to offer.
And it's not like we take "less" damage than other tanks, nor heal more than other tanks.

So, can anybody convince me to why you would ever take a monk compared to other tanks?
I would like to hear all kinds of pov's, healer/thanks and raid leaders! Please speak up!


Some logs from my last raid http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fcvltc4snd78jzw6/.
As you see, I can keep my shuffle time up to 100% (See 4Kings), the other fights you can't really tell since I Hi everyone, this thread is not meant to be a "whiny" thread about brewmasters.

But I have a few questions for other tanks, healers or raid leaders out there
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my brewmaster (link in signature, but 498 ilvl).
But I just can't see why you would take a a brewmaster, compared to a warrior or paladin? Even a blood dk is better tanking wise, however they have no real raid CD's like warrior/paladin. Druids are in a bad place right now, but they still got tranq and innervate.

Monks got the Statue and in someway Chi Wave, how ever Chi wave isn't used that often since you have to keep shuffle close to 100%.
The only time I can use Chi Wave is when the other tank is tanking, but still it's not that high raid help compared to what warrior and paladin have to offer.
And it's not like we take "less" damage than other tanks, nor heal more than other tanks.

So, can anybody convince me to why you would ever take a monk compared to other tanks?
I would like to hear all kinds of pov's, healer/thanks and raid leaders! Please speak up!

Some logs from my last raid http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fcvltc4snd78jzw6/.
As you see, I can keep my shuffle time up to 100% (See 4Kings, the only time I don't have shuffle up is the time where Qiang runs to me in start of fight.), the other fights you can't really tell since I prioritise to use Chi Wave instead of BoK and that's resulting in not 100% uptime on shuffle.

TL;DR Why pick Brewmaster compared to other tanks?

[Kyuubi87]

From experience Brewmasters take more damage than any other tank, but I wouldn't compare it to the other tanks per say, I'd say bring the player and not the class.

[xzeve]

From experience Brewmasters take more damage than any other tank, but I wouldn't compare it to the other tanks per say, I'd say bring the player and not the class.

exactly a good player controling a brewmaster OVER a slacky player playing IMBATANKCLASS

[Apoulsen]

exactly a good player controling a brewmaster OVER a slacky player playing IMBATANKCLASS

From experience Brewmasters take more damage than any other tank, but I wouldn't compare it to the other tanks per say, I'd say bring the player and not the class.

But why not bring a good player with a IMBATANKCLASS?
Im raid leader in my guild, just playing with IRL friends and a few randoms.
As you see from the logs, I do rank quite high on WoL so it's not because im a bad player that I feel like I take less damage.
I got a paladin @lvl 81, so I could "easily" switch for 5.2.

[Valium104]

Why? Because they don't get crits like DK, and they take smooth dmg allowing healer to use cheaper spells, not panicking. Also, highest mobility, highest DPS, helps a lot healing raid (statue with bubbles for 150k, chi wave).

[Apoulsen]

Why? Because they don't get crits like DK, and they take smooth dmg allowing healer to use cheaper spells, not panicking. Also, highest mobility, highest DPS, helps a lot healing raid (statue with bubbles for 150k, chi wave).

Yeah you might be right, I just panicked a bit when I saw our other tank take less damage than me, even when I was geared to the skies for the content we did.

[Chiquihuite]

As a Shaman healer, I like BrM tanks (good ones, anyway). Smooth damage intake allows me to be much more efficient since I can line up buffs and make full use of my mastery.

[Kisho]

Few misconceptions in this thread, let's go through them.

But I just can't see why you would take a a brewmaster, compared to a warrior or paladin? Even a blood dk is better tanking wise, however they have no real raid CD's like warrior/paladin. Druids are in a bad place right now, but they still got tranq and innervate.

A Brewmaster's strength is in their ability to help out the other roles. They do very high DPS for tanks, and also help a lot with the healing side of things due to their raidwide Guards from the statue. They also have very high avoidance and, compared to other tanks, usually take less damage than the other tank classes. This is useful for things like the Sha of Fear's thrash, Gara'jal's Voodoo Dolls, and more.

We also have very strong personal cooldowns in the right situation. For example, on Lei Shi we can use Diffuse Magic, Zen Meditation and a glyphed Guard to take barely any magic damage whatsoever. Dampen Harm is great for Blade Lord Ta'yak, and any other boss with a predictable large attack on a timer.

Some logs from my last raid http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fcvltc4snd78jzw6/.
As you see, I can keep my shuffle time up to 100% (See 4Kings, the only time I don't have shuffle up is the time where Qiang runs to me in start of fight.), the other fights you can't really tell since I prioritise to use Chi Wave instead of BoK and that's resulting in not 100% uptime on shuffle.

Prioritising Chi Wave over BoK means you're doing it wrong, simple. 100% uptime reduces the damage you take immensely, as well as smooths out the damage we take. Chi Wave is nice, but shouldn't be prioritised over keeping Shuffle up.

From experience Brewmasters take more damage than any other tank, but I wouldn't compare it to the other tanks per say, I'd say bring the player and not the class.

Incorrect. Generally speaking, we take less damage overall. However, it can sometimes appear more spikey due to our avoidance and relatively low HP pools. This can be problematic while healers aren't used to healing you, but once they get used to it (and you get in decent gear) it becomes a non-issue.

Ultimately, the key thing is this: is the Brewmaster a good player? If yes, you take them to raids. They are no weaker than other tanks and have their own strengths and weaknesses, just like the other tanks do.

[RandomGamer]

Druids in a bad place? Please elaborate.

Monk tanks have awesome raid and personal cool downs, guard is amazing on heroic modes (Gara'jal, Protectors). Also monks excel at grabbing adds and keeping them under control (Tsulong, Elegon), also a very mobile and decent DPS tank.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 02:08 PM ----------

From experience Brewmasters take more damage than any other tank, but I wouldn't compare it to the other tanks per say, I'd say bring the player and not the class.

A Bad Tank takes more damage than a Good Tank, regardless of the class. Monks have had less time to fiddle with their class so skilled ones are harder to find, doesn't mean they get more/less damage. They can be somewhat spiky, tho.

[toaae]

Yeah you might be right, I just panicked a bit when I saw our other tank take less damage than me, even when I was geared to the skies for the content we did.

One thing to keep in mind is you can't rely on World of Logs to compare how much physical damage Brewmasters take. WoL counts damage that is Staggered as absorbed, which counts as damage taken. So, it's counting the amount of damage you stagger twice; once on the initial hit, and then again from the Stagger debuff.

One thing that should always be true: when looking at overall damage (which isn't that important, but, hey, it's a thing), a Brewmaster will always take the least amount of damage from Boss attacks, due to high avoidance.

[Apoulsen]

Few misconceptions in this thread, let's go through them.



A Brewmaster's strength is in their ability to help out the other roles. They do very high DPS for tanks, and also help a lot with the healing side of things due to their raidwide Guards from the statue. They also have very high avoidance and, compared to other tanks, usually take less damage than the other tank classes. This is useful for things like the Sha of Fear's thrash, Gara'jal's Voodoo Dolls, and more.

We also have very strong personal cooldowns in the right situation. For example, on Lei Shi we can use Diffuse Magic, Zen Meditation and a glyphed Guard to take barely any magic damage whatsoever. Dampen Harm is great for Blade Lord Ta'yak, and any other boss with a predictable large attack on a timer.



Prioritising Chi Wave over BoK means you're doing it wrong, simple. 100% uptime reduces the damage you take immensely, as well as smooths out the damage we take. Chi Wave is nice, but shouldn't be prioritised over keeping Shuffle up.



Incorrect. Generally speaking, we take less damage overall. However, it can sometimes appear more spikey due to our avoidance and relatively low HP pools. This can be problematic while healers aren't used to healing you, but once they get used to it (and you get in decent gear) it becomes a non-issue.

Ultimately, the key thing is this: is the Brewmaster a good player? If yes, you take them to raids. They are no weaker than other tanks and have their own strengths and weaknesses, just like the other tanks do.

Thanks for your input!

However I see that I made a typo in what I wrote, I only priotise Chi Wave before BoK when the other tank is tanking
When im the one with aggro, I always keep my shuffe close to 100% as possible.
That's what I meant with wol giving "false" information, the poster above mé also mentioned that it counts the stagger damage twice.

[Oghqt]

Hey all,

I have the impression that brewmasters have been and still are the most underrated tank class in T14 (10 man HC). Let's see how we compare to other tanks in some regards:

+ We have massive raid "heal" potential through our statue and to a lesser extent due to Chi Wave, which can, however, be used in critical situations. In some fights, a brewmaster is an additional healer and I'm not only talking about Windlord. I'm also talking about WotE HC, Sha of Fear HC P2 (during which I outheal our shaman and quite significantly reduce the probability of instant gibs), Protectors HC, even Stone Guard and quite a few others. In this regard we are better than all other tanks although protection paladins come close.

+ We actually DO have good self healing potential through GotOx, Chi Wave, Expel Harm (and Guard). For instance, 50% of my healing taken during WotE HC is usually from my own spells (http://www.wadins.orldoflogs.com/rep.../?s=918&e=1449). If you think I just cherry-picked a nice log, look at other logs from good monks. I've seen percentages exceeding 60% in that fight, in particular, but also similar numbers for quite some other encounters. In this regard, we are superior to warriors (clearly) and paladins (yes, only rarely will they choose to WoG over SotR). I've no clue about druids but since they have to decide between Savage Defense and FR, while we get (the biggest part) of our heal in addition to our active mitigation mechanic "Shuffle", I'd see brewmasters here ahead, too. So, we are only bested by Blood DKs here.

+ We excel at doing damage. In most encounters, we do the most damage among all tanks on average (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000). However, the druid colleagues' HoW has its uses and shouldn't be neglected for it's off-tank burst potential. Also, due to the revenge mechanik, warriors excel at doing large amount of single--target DPS when they are hit by many mobs (e.g. they do massive amounts of damage to the Windlord during the recklessness phase), which may be an advantage in some coming fights and was certainly an advantage for Windlord and Empress HC progress.

+ We are tied with warriors for the most mobile tank class (in some fights the warriors mobility tool-kit is superior and in others it is ours that's better).

+ Regarding CDs I often read that other tanks have better ones. Yet, it is a fact that our CDs are appropriate to adequately deal with every boss mechanic in T14 10 man HC progress, and many of our CDs can be used as "emergency buttons" (e.g. FB increases life, Guard absorbs otherwise lethal damage, Zen Meditation/Magic Diffusion make you pretty much unkillable in specific contexts). Apart from this proven fact (by many examples ) I cannot provide any real evidence for as to why a warrior would have better CDs than a monk tank and vice versa.

+ Unfortunately, there isn't a nice log analyzer out there looking at damage taken data on an aggregate level. So I'm restricted to the few logs I looked at during my guild's T14 progression. All I can say is that, once you understood that WoL shows wrong damage taken numbers for monk tanks and how to calculate the right ones, I found that I very clearly took less damage than our Blood DKs but even less than our Warriors. Nevertheless, these data are not representative, so please compare yourself to your co-tank (http://forums.worldoflogs.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3530).

(Of course, this is by no means a comprehensive comparison. Usually, the mechanics of the actual tier's most difficult bosses dictate which tank class is perceivably the best. In this regard, other tanks bring some skills to the table that are very class specific and which may be very advantageous for some encounters. Protection paladins have a rich history of being the class with most "cheese" potential, e.g. using bubble to get rid of debuff stacks of many kinds, using ardent defender to take a pretty nasty hit.)

It was so frustrating at the beginning of MoP when everyone told you that brewmasters were inferior tanks because there were (and probably still are) so many bad brewmasters. Even all this talk about brewmasters being bad in challenge modes is so funny. I haven't yet invested a lot of time in CMs. Basically, I just started them last week. At the beginning of MoP, everyone said that it's so easy with Blood DKs and close to impossible with brewmasters to get 9/9. On Friday, I got gold in Brewery and Jade Temple in the second try and in Shado-Pan Monastery in the first try (neither of my guild mates had gold in these CMs). According to my holy paladin, I was way easier to heal than the two Blood DKs he has got experience with. And I don't think that I'm uber pro. There are many way better brewmasters than me. E.g. it's a fact that as of today, most world best times are held by groups with a brewmaster tank (http://www.youtube.com/user/Nerthech...ew=0&flow=grid).

I strongly believe that in 10 man HC T14 monk/paladin was the best tank comp. Blood DKs, on the other hand, were overrated by a very large margin. But still, all that I wrote just applies to 10 man HC raiding. I have no idea about 25 man raiding.

INB4 flames directed at my experience: http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Gul'dan/oghqt/ - World 240 - so, I'm definitely not pro.

[soulzek]

the same reason youd pick a paladin tank, they have the options to heal as well. and that will never change, while flavor of the month tank will always change.

oh yeah - druids are a thing too

[crakerjack]

Can't speak on end game... but I played the 10 day trial for MoP and I got my brewmaster to level 50 in one day from tanking... Plenty of AoE so there shouldn't be issues regarding threat and mobs... I didn't see that many defensive CD's, maybe they're just later... but overall they're pretty decent.

[Kyuubi87]

Druids in a bad place? Please elaborate.

Monk tanks have awesome raid and personal cool downs, guard is amazing on heroic modes (Gara'jal, Protectors). Also monks excel at grabbing adds and keeping them under control (Tsulong, Elegon), also a very mobile and decent DPS tank.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 02:08 PM ----------



A Bad Tank takes more damage than a Good Tank, regardless of the class. Monks have had less time to fiddle with their class so skilled ones are harder to find, doesn't mean they get more/less damage. They can be somewhat spiky, tho.

Yeah that is a good way to put it, they are 'spiky' - which is what our healers in our guild feel. Don't take me wrong, one of our maintanks is a Brewmaster and I definitely believe how good/bad a tank is depends on the player, but also Blizzard imo haven't had the same time to tune them as the other tank classes in comparison since they have been around for years and Monk is the latest addition

[celinamuna]

While i've never even got to run with a brewmaster tank (don't seem that common on my realm), looking through logs previously i'd say they're easily number one in damage done (tank wise) and probably number 2 in healing (behind paladins), in addition to bringing a nice degree of raid cd's.

Plus as mentioned before they are mobile.

(As for the spike factor, honestly they seem somewhat like DK tanks when dk's just came out)

[Neolol]

So for a little background about myself :
I consider myself as a good player, i'm not part of the best either. My guild is actually ranked in the top 1000 world (wich is our best performance, we usually rank between 1500 and 2000) we are a bunch of IRL friends and we play together for 3-4 years now.
I've played a lot of tanks at high end pve (druid tank and dk tank, as well as a war tank at BC, but that isn't relevant)
Oh and btw we're a 10man team. So i will only talk about the 10man perspective of having a brm tank.

Now for the brewmaster tank, my thoughts :

WE.GET.SMASHED
I'll take a simple example, on shek zeek HC we have me and a war tank. During phase 2 we both share the same number of adds (3 small 1 big) we need all our healers to cycle through their CD (+ my CD's ofc) to even remotely try to keep me alive. Even then I take horrid spikes of damage...which makes all our healers go oom. On the other hand, the war can go all offensive and survive with half the attention of the healers (oh yeah, he even had a deco once, and he didn't die, nor was he a great deal to heal)

While we do have a great array of tools at our disposal, and indeed the class is greatly skilled reliable, I am convinced that at same skill level any other tank will outshine them - that is again, i repeat, in a 10man environment. We do manage to perform GREATLY when tanking easy content (and by easy i mean content on farm, or content you should have already been farming with your ilvl) but the trouble is : no one cares about being awesome when shit's easy... On the other hand as i've said i'm a total nightmare for our healers when we're on progress. Monday we're going on heroic Sha, it'll be me and the druid, we'll see what happens there.

I think we greatly lack in 3 aspects :
- huge spikes when incoming damage is heavy (aka any decent heroic fights)
- very weak against big group of mobs
- I think we really need an omgwtf CD (or maybe +10% on the fortifying brew) as well as improved range for our raid CD (also up it by 5% would be nice)

Feel free to browse logs (browse them by "Healing taken" don't judge with "Damage taken" it is broken on WoL - then tweak a bit the numbers by cutting off the heals you've done to yourself etc etc), people can post as many incredible vids and as many one-of-a-kind log, but if you look through a great deal of them you see that overall we take much more, and spikier damage. At least in 10 man.

Anyway as much as I love playing my monk if we judge by how monks (all of their specs) are represented in high end pve we could say they are under performing. They are without a doubt harder than other specs to play, but that is not an excuse in high end pve.
A good player will be, without a doubt able to clean the whole content with a brm monk. But then again why not take any other class, that might actually benefit you raid way more ? save you a few nights and a lot of frustrations ? Because yes, right now I am frustrated that this class, as awesome as it could have been, is lacking.


PS : As i have read in the previous posts : we do have a great potential at both healing AND damage dealing, this is pretty undiputable. But guess what...we are tanks. Also to be totally fair, if you play it safer, you deal less damage. And if you compare the raid heal you've spared for you healers to the overhealing you need to negate your horrid spikes....well it might be a fair deal but it also puts way more stress on the healers.

[Derpette]

Ultimately, the key thing is this: is the Brewmaster a good player? If yes, you take them to raids. They are no weaker than other tanks and have their own strengths and weaknesses, just like the other tanks do.

This seems like the best way to describe. Not sure for cutting edge progression, but tanks atm seem to be very well balanced. All of them have their weakness and strengths, and brewmaster is no different.
I also think of all tanks we scale best with gear, no? If they don't nerf us, we'll be sporting like 60%+ uptime on 90% avoidance in t16 or something ridic (and that's just single-target, on fights with 2 tanks taunting every 25 sec or so that could easily be 90% uptime on 90% avoidance while effective tanking).
I'm quite happy the way we went live, and apearantly so is blizzard. We getting something to help us get out of stuns in 5.2 (which was needed, not so much for raiding, more for dungeons/trash I suppose) and lvl 30 talents become resource-free which is a nice boost to our healing done. I can't remember any other significant changes, we'll just get a ton stronger with the huge ilvl inflation.

[cyqu]

WE.GET.SMASHED
I'll take a simple example, on shek zeek HC we have me and a war tank. During phase 2 we both share the same number of adds (3 small 1 big) we need all our healers to cycle through their CD (+ my CD's ofc) to even remotely try to keep me alive. Even then I take horrid spikes of damage...which makes all our healers go oom. On the other hand, the war can go all offensive and survive with half the attention of the healers (oh yeah, he even had a deco once, and he didn't die, nor was he a great deal to heal)

well obviously a block tank is going to be better for that

[Tapzer]

I main tank for my guild on my brm. We are nowhere near hardcore (4/16h) but i find myself doing pretty well, I can usually be in the top 4 dps in my group depending on my vengeance, outhealing the blood dk OT, and the INSANE aoe dps brewmasters have make certain bosses (Wind lord) incredibly easy with me topping over 700k dps before all the adds die (Rotating Guard,BoK,expel harm,RJW, and spinning crane kick, gotta becareful on windlord though. If you let shuffle drop off at any point while tanking all the adds+boss its pretty much gg)