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  1. #21
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    garrosh has waaaaay too many diff writers.

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  2. #22
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    But this sort of brings you to the whole Jedi vs Sith thing, too, possibly Blizzard took a leaf out of that lore, too. Sith using negative emotions to their advantage, while Jedi trying to be as zen as any panda. If this is any indication, Garrosh' way is not only 'evil', but doomed to fail.
    Just because Sith are painted as always wrong and always failing, it doesn't mean that the path itself is wrong and doomed to fail.
    Since we pretty much know for sure Garrosh goes wrong somehow, somewhere, in this expansion, we can assume that whatever it is he's trying is not really working out. And, really, you also must consider why he's doing it. The pandaren surpress these emotions to have peace - Garrosh seeks to control those emotions, and the evil beings that come from it, to have more power, and with more power, "paint this land in blood" and crush the alliance. There's nothing benign about his intentions. While from a philosophical PoV, there's something to be said about Garrosh' approach to these emotions, from a WoW PoV I don't believe there's anything remotely good about it.
    Garrosh seeks to end war, and he does not believe in coexistence of such antagonistic forces as Horde and Alliance, hence, the only acceptable way to peace is through ending the conflict once and for all with a decisive victory. However he lacks subtlety and patience.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 05:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    garrosh has waaaaay too many diff writers.
    That's really the root of all his problems.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  3. #23
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    garrosh has waaaaay too many diff writers.
    Too many cooks spoil the broth

    But then, I don't know how you can improve on a turd sandwich anyway.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Garrosh's own undoing is himself. You can try and justify or make him sympathetic but if you look at things he's blatant,harsh, and pretty much makes Sylvanas look like nothing.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  5. #25
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Too many cooks spoil the broth

    But then, I don't know how you can improve on a turd sandwich anyway.
    feed it to your mortal enemy of course.


    garrosh had far too many writers to be a character. you need a solid writer for some of this stuff.

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  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Too many cooks spoil the broth

    But then, I don't know how you can improve on a turd sandwich anyway.
    Like this!

    Sky's "Better way to do Garrosh than Blizz method"

    Back in Wotlk...

    a. Have Garrosh not in command of the warsong offensive, but rather it's a Blackrock offensive in Wotlk, with Rend dead they're leaderless and want into the Horde, and so Thrall says 'sure, but to test your loyalty you fellows go STRAIGHT TO THE MEATGRINDER, plus if you kill the LK the humans won't be so pissed at you anymore.' puts Saurfang and Eitrigg in charge of them and Garrosh is supposed to watch and learn along with the other Mag'har, like Jorin Deadeye. Baine's there too because why not.


    b. Garrosh is naive and overeager yet goodnatured rather than an asshole, and instead of constantly touting Horde superiority, suggests to native races that they join the Horde because it's awesome, will protect them from scourge, and is a family. Something like the following exchange occurs as a chat-event instead of his current arguments with Saurfang.

    Tuskarr Refugee: We are all dying and the scourge is unstoppable, let us use your boats to get away!

    Saurfang: Can't do that, we need our boats, tell you what though, you can stay at our bases and we'll trade you supplies for food and info about northrend.

    Tuskarr refugee: Shit okay but we're all still gonna die.

    Garrosh: Look walrus man I totally know what you're going through, I was a weepy sack of crap in Nagrand up until the Horde showed up and gave me a swift kick in the rear, so now that's what I'm gonna do for you and all of your people. You just sit back and fish up some whales for our grunts because we are going to kill ALL of the scourge.

    Tuskarr: But dood the scourge are ridiculous I mean they have undead dragons have you even seen this shit?

    Garrosh: The Horde is MORE ridiculous we survived a planet exploding c'mon we got this. Hey *grabs player* Let's go out and kill a frostwyrm and mount its head on the wall to show the tuskarr how awesome we are.

    Saurfang: You are going to sit your ass down and do what I tell you to do Thrall told me not to let you get yourself killed.

    Garrosh: But Varoooook I wanna go outside and-

    Saurfang: SIT YOUR ASS DOWN BEFORE I CLEAVE IT OFF.

    Garrosh: *grumbles and whispers to player* Seriously go kill a frostwyrm it'll be badass and the Tuskarr need it.

    *player does quest*

    Tuskarr: Holy shit the Horde's got this c'mon guys let's go fish them up ALL THE WHALES.


    c. Garrosh still questions why the other races like trolls are in the Horde but it's more of an honest curiosity rather than racism.

    d. Garrosh does something stupid and nearly gets himself killed and forsaken apothecaries/surgeons patch him up hence a grudging respect for them.

    e. Garrosh goes through NR seeing how a lot of the races in Azeroth like the trolls and magnataur have never really prospered, or have fallen from prosperity. Comes back from NR and sees the Horde living in crappy conditions in Durotar, Twilights hammer still pulls false-flag shit and the nelfs cut off trade. Garrosh wants to declare war to get the supplies the Horde needs. Cairne wants him to calm down and wait for thrall to get back from shaman stuff, challenges him to mak'gora still. Garrosh doesn't challenge Cairne to a 'to the death' duel but Magatha still poisons his axe in the non-lethal version.

    f. Garrosh is pissed, hunts down Magatha with Baine, they kill her together, Baine talks Garrosh into not going to war against the nelves up until the twilights false-flag a nelf thing on the Horde by exacerbating Naralex's nightmare stuff and getting a bunch of Tauren/orcs/trolls killed. War starts up without Garrosh looking like a dumbass, and ends in the twilight Citadel where documents detailing all the false-flagging that started the war are found.
    Twas brillig

  7. #27
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    You've put to much thought into this skytotem for something that would have been considered a 'what if'.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You've put to much thought into this skytotem for something that would have been considered a 'what if'.
    I've had a long time to think about it, I was one of the people in TBC that got annoyed with people calling Garrosh a crybaby and I was like 'well yeah but Thrall talked to him, he put out a buff that was basically 'blessing of the warchief' he's gonna get better, Blizz -said- he would get better' only then he never did :\
    Twas brillig

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Pride... Garrosh has much of it.

    The line about murder makes it clear. Was it not murder to nuke a town of druid students? To drop a mana bomb on Theramore? What of his attempt to have Vol'Jin assassinated?

    There's one Sha we haven't seen, remember....
    Possible but we don't know that there's a seventh sha, it's speculation.

    THe druid students? Garrosh had nothing to do with that, and he executed the guy that did it.

    Theramore was a millitary target, no questions asked, and the civilians were evacuated.

    Attempting to assassinate vol'jin was, from his point of view, getting rid of a disloyal thorn in his side.

    He's not a good guy, but I don't see garrosh as 100% evil. Just mostly evil.

  10. #30
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Like this!

    Sky's "Better way to do Garrosh than Blizz method"
    Nice, but too much friendliness. How about...

    Haven's "Better way to do Garrosh than Blizz method"

    TBC: We meet Garrosh in Nagrand. He's being bitter about his father's legacy, however not to the point of being an apathetic sponge he was in the original. He's still reckless and brash, and participates in culling ogre threat, which becomes less of a suicide mission with the assistance of the player. Jorin Deadeye acts as his counselor, however with time he brings his subtle and cautious dabbling with fel magics to a new level, seeing how decisive Garrosh and his clan have become with the support of the Horde. However this "willing corruption", as Garrosh sees this, starts animosity between them.

    Wrath: Garrosh challenges Thrall to a mak'gora over the decision of sending an army to Northrend and wins - no magic bullshit, Thrall fights like a gladiator and loses. Garrosh wins himself a right to command Warsong army, comprised also of his Mag'har subordinates from Garadar. Including Jorin, which he initially objects. Despite little experience, Garrosh still succeeds on several important objectives (with both luck and cunning), however clashing with the Alliance in the process. He sees humans as a nuisance and is outraged to hear that they defeated the Horde in Second War, and kept orcs as prisoners.

    Meanwhile on the other side of the continent, Dranosh Saurfang commands the army in Grizzly Hills and Dragonblight, and he is not amused at seeing Garrosh's progress. He believes him to be too dangerous for the future of the Horde. Young orcs gladly follow his approach that Dranosh sees as "force can solve all the problems". Dranosh fails to become a more charismatic figure than Garrosh and plans on challenging Garrosh to lower his authority. Jorin spies on Dranosh and manages to create a conspiracy, the ultimate goal of which is to make Dranosh do a suicidal move. Through careful instigation, Jorin makes Dranosh believe that it is Lich King himself that he should defeat in order to override Garrosh's influence over orcs. At some point, Garrosh learns of Jorin's machinations and accuses him of treachery. Only memory of past friendship holds his hand from executing Jorin on spot. In a couple of days Wrathgate incident happens, leaving Garrosh pondering whether Jorin was right. After he takes over troops that were in Dranosh's command, he subjects several of his former leutenants to interrogation, all the way to torture, but finds out Jorin was right. He releases Jorin.

    The scene in Ulduar trailer was ridiculous. Instead of charging at Wrynn outright, he exchanges "pleasantries" with him. He suspects that Dranosh could go so far as to conspire with the Alliance to get him overthrown. He grows paranoid.

    Cata: In absence of a better candidate to command orcs, Garrosh is appointed Warchief. However, unlike Thrall, he faces with the necessity to discuss all decisions with Vol'jin and Cairne. Garrosh expected that they would simply follow him as they followed Thrall, and all the tension and Ashenvale shenanigans lead to his duel with Cairne. Jorin, however, turns out to be the traitor to the Twilight's Hammer, and Garrosh grudgingly executes him with his own hand. Suddenly, Horde seems both native and alien to him at the same time because of all the unexpected resistance and betrayals. Handpicked Kor'kron look like the only ones who can be trusted. With time, only their opinion matters to the young Warchief, and they are fiercely loyal and supportive of his ideas, thus completing the vicious circle.

    Mists: I'd cut out all that shit with Sha experiments. That's too much like nazi experiments on creating a supersoldier. The rest is almost fine.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral Narna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post

    b. Garrosh is naive and overeager yet goodnatured rather than an asshole, and instead of constantly touting Horde superiority, suggests to native races that they join the Horde because it's awesome, will protect them from scourge, and is a family. Something like the following exchange occurs as a chat-event instead of his current arguments with Saurfang.

    Tuskarr Refugee: We are all dying and the scourge is unstoppable, let us use your boats to get away!

    Saurfang: Can't do that, we need our boats, tell you what though, you can stay at our bases and we'll trade you supplies for food and info about northrend.

    Tuskarr refugee: Shit okay but we're all still gonna die.

    Garrosh: Look walrus man I totally know what you're going through, I was a weepy sack of crap in Nagrand up until the Horde showed up and gave me a swift kick in the rear, so now that's what I'm gonna do for you and all of your people. You just sit back and fish up some whales for our grunts because we are going to kill ALL of the scourge.

    Tuskarr: But dood the scourge are ridiculous I mean they have undead dragons have you even seen this shit?

    Garrosh: The Horde is MORE ridiculous we survived a planet exploding c'mon we got this. Hey *grabs player* Let's go out and kill a frostwyrm and mount its head on the wall to show the tuskarr how awesome we are.

    Saurfang: You are going to sit your ass down and do what I tell you to do Thrall told me not to let you get yourself killed.

    Garrosh: But Varoooook I wanna go outside and-

    Saurfang: SIT YOUR ASS DOWN BEFORE I CLEAVE IT OFF.

    Garrosh: *grumbles and whispers to player* Seriously go kill a frostwyrm it'll be badass and the Tuskarr need it.

    *player does quest*

    Tuskarr: Holy shit the Horde's got this c'mon guys let's go fish them up ALL THE WHALES.
    Haha, I chuckled. That was a good read.
    Troll's Life Mon.
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  12. #32
    Elemental Lord Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Garrosh is just a mad dog now.

    He has delusions of grandeur, as you expect a tyrant to have. He thinks he can control anything, and believes he is without limits.

    He also believes everything he does to be right and for the horde, even when he is sacrificing his own horde for what he thinks of as the greater good. These are clear traits of a tyrant and sociopath.

    He is a character who sits in the same boat as religious extremists and those who kill for there religion, one who will not be questioned on his belief and commit to it, without anyone telling him otherwise.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 09:19 PM ----------

    This is just blizzard making it that instead of being a 2 dimensional villain, Garrosh is a villain with layers
    I do believe he wants whats best for the horde, and I believe he always thinks hes doing whats right. He is basically becoming Hitler.
    Send me a PM and suggest a forum avatar based on my title, Immortal.

  13. #33
    Some of the ways he's been portrayed make me really feel he's an important character to afford the players the chance to ponder a lot of matters of gray area / perspective / etc. But some other ways they just have him cross the line into cartoonish supervillainy.

    Even with him being the enemy in the final raid I still would like to be able to conceive of him as doing what he earnestly believes is for the best of his people, but I don't see that happening. I think it's just a bit too fine of a line for Blizz to balance with regard to his character. As in, I think they'll have to step a bit too far into him being a tyrant rather than just a well-intentioned extremist.

    I dunno. We'll see.
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