1. #1
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    [Ret PvP] Battle Healer 5.2

    We're making a change to the way damage-to-healing conversions work so that the healing is not affected by resilience. The healing will be based on how much damage would have been done as if the target had no resilience. If you hit an opponent for 10K and have a mechanic that converts damage into 50% healing, your hit may land for 6K because of resilience, but the heal will still be 5K (50% of the unmitigated damage). This only applies to resilience, not to armor, Shield Wall or other forms of damage reduction.

    This change currently includes Atonement, Glyph of Battle Healer, Ancestral Guidance, Vampiric Embrace, Nature's Vigil, Glyph of Siphon Life, Eminence, Glyph of Flame Shock and Leeching Poison.
    I have not seen anyone mention of this glyph for 5.2 in this forum. I think it looks quite interesting.

    Say your target has 65% resil,
    100k TV becomes 35k and it heals your ally for 30k.

    So in fact depending on your targets resil the glyph is like 85-100% of the damage done in PvP environment. Down side is we would have to use soi. But im definitely gonna give it a try. What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Won't matter considering most teams train the ret, and battle healer doesn't heal self, only allies. Yes, SoI will heal you, but it's a pitiful amount in comparison.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk
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    Also SoI isn't that worth it for Ret right now anyway. Big loss for little gain. Other than that, exactly what Bacon said.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Trisrx's Avatar
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    Bacon has a good point, and its a shame battle healer doesnt heal self. Still, I think most of the ret community underestimates SoI/Battle healer. While SoI does no direct damage, it still provides damage in a sense. The 'damage' from SoI/BH comes from an increased amount of TV, which gets more use for several reasons. Because TV does damage and healing now, WoG becomes a less desirable way to spend holy power by comparison. Fortunately, the extra healing from BH will make using WOG less necessary, freeing up holy power for additional TV. Finally, the extra mana from SoI makes flash of light more available when needed, further reducing the holy power previously wasted on WoG. Keep in mind that flash of light was recently buffed on the PTR, and it can be very effective.

    Of course im not suggesting that SoI/BH is the set and forget pvp seal from now on. But it provides great utility, and is worthy of use in a clever rets toolkit. Use it for dual hybrid 2s, swap to survive between burst phases in 3s, use it to hold nodes in RBGs, and its great in regular BGs if your team is lacking heals. Dont underestimate it.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    Only if you swap to SoI, you're doing 0 Truth damage and your Censure may well fall off. An extra 35k TV over an occasional WoG is probably not worth losing all that seal damage in reality.

    I'd prefer to see Glyph of Battle Healer removed and turned into a cooldown that converts damage to healing. That'd provide some survivability to the Ret at least and a much greater on demand heal. The Glyph is steady, but doesn't do any large amounts of healing in short amounts of time which is what you really want from a heal if you're forced to heal in the first place.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Trisrx View Post
    Bacon has a good point, and its a shame battle healer doesnt heal self. Still, I think most of the ret community underestimates SoI/Battle healer. While SoI does no direct damage, it still provides damage in a sense. The 'damage' from SoI/BH comes from an increased amount of TV, which gets more use for several reasons. Because TV does damage and healing now, WoG becomes a less desirable way to spend holy power by comparison. Fortunately, the extra healing from BH will make using WOG less necessary, freeing up holy power for additional TV. Finally, the extra mana from SoI makes flash of light more available when needed, further reducing the holy power previously wasted on WoG. Keep in mind that flash of light was recently buffed on the PTR, and it can be very effective.

    Of course im not suggesting that SoI/BH is the set and forget pvp seal from now on. But it provides great utility, and is worthy of use in a clever rets toolkit. Use it for dual hybrid 2s, swap to survive between burst phases in 3s, use it to hold nodes in RBGs, and its great in regular BGs if your team is lacking heals. Dont underestimate it.
    As long as Ret is always the kill target of choice, Battle Healer will NEVER be good because it does nothing for the Ret.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Only if you swap to SoI, you're doing 0 Truth damage and your Censure may well fall off. An extra 35k TV over an occasional WoG is probably not worth losing all that seal damage in reality.

    I'd prefer to see Glyph of Battle Healer removed and turned into a cooldown that converts damage to healing. That'd provide some survivability to the Ret at least and a much greater on demand heal. The Glyph is steady, but doesn't do any large amounts of healing in short amounts of time which is what you really want from a heal if you're forced to heal in the first place.
    Removing Battle Healer would be a cataclysmic nerf to Prot, for no good reason. Though, I do agree with your sentiment. I think it's kind of....lame....that other hybrids (namely Shaman with AG and Druids with NV) got talents that give damage <-> heal conversions but paladin's didn't. I get that we sorta got an option in terms of GoBH, but that's really only usable/feasible for Prot and has come to be one of its cornerstones.

    Personally, I'd like to see wings go back to 2min CD baseline, since it's already as such on both PVP AND PVE set bonuses. Then, SW should get changed to be a similar damage <-> healing idea; Increases the duration of AW by 50% and converts X% of damage done to healing or Y% of healing done to damage. Ta-da - hybrid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Removing Battle Healer would be a cataclysmic nerf to Prot, for no good reason. Though, I do agree with your sentiment. I think it's kind of....lame....that other hybrids (namely Shaman with AG and Druids with NV) got talents that give damage <-> heal conversions but paladin's didn't. I get that we sorta got an option in terms of GoBH, but that's really only usable/feasible for Prot and has come to be one of its cornerstones.

    Personally, I'd like to see wings go back to 2min CD baseline, since it's already as such on both PVP AND PVE set bonuses. Then, SW should get changed to be a similar damage <-> healing idea; Increases the duration of AW by 50% and converts X% of damage done to healing or Y% of healing done to damage. Ta-da - hybrid.
    If they made Sanctified Wrath comparable to NV I would take it over HA in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of Rets probably. Honestly, if they just changed HA to do that instead of hits hitting for 30% more or something, could work too.

    Guess what I'm trying to point out is that Paladins have a really shitty talent tree, pretty much overall. None of the choices are interesting. Divine Purpose might as well be baseline for Prot paladins, because it makes your uptime on Shield of the Righteous ridiculous. Clemency might as well be the only choice a pvp paladin has because it greatly overshadows the other choices. It's kinda really lame when thats the case when on a druid many of the tiers are really based on choice. Melee HoJ vs Aoe Blind vs AoE snare/pullback? That's a meaningful choice. Ret has none. Prot has very few. Etc.

    Not to even mention the glyph choices Ret has.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    If they made Sanctified Wrath comparable to NV I would take it over HA in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of Rets probably. Honestly, if they just changed HA to do that instead of hits hitting for 30% more or something, could work too.

    Guess what I'm trying to point out is that Paladins have a really shitty talent tree, pretty much overall. None of the choices are interesting. Divine Purpose might as well be baseline for Prot paladins, because it makes your uptime on Shield of the Righteous ridiculous. Clemency might as well be the only choice a pvp paladin has because it greatly overshadows the other choices. It's kinda really lame when thats the case when on a druid many of the tiers are really based on choice. Melee HoJ vs Aoe Blind vs AoE snare/pullback? That's a meaningful choice. Ret has none. Prot has very few. Etc.
    That's what happens when you take a SPEC'S talent tree from pre-MoP and give it to a CLASS. I can see the dev meeting when paladin talents came up:
    "So, what are we going to do for the tiers?"
    "Hmm...movement, CC, maybe some damage stuff. Probably need a HoPo thingy in there. OOOH and glittery spell effects!"
    "Perfect, Johnson. Any ideas on movement?"
    "Well... most ret players took PoJ since it was passive and easy..."
    "Great, add it in. But take out that HoPo generation when you get feared and stuff. Nobody likes that random nonsense!"
    "And...ret had that cool "gap closer" [snicker] Long Arm of the LOL"
    "Great, one more!"
    "And Holy had th-"
    "Holy, great! What about CC?"
    "Well, ret had Repent, and most took the shorter CD stun. I know it's against the dogma of the company, but they've also been asking for a snare, sir"
    "Hmmm...well, there ARE more ret paladins than rogues...let's give them a snare."
    "Sir, are...are you sure?"
    "Yes....BUT they have to PICK which of those 3 they want. Deliciously cruel..."
    "Ok...well what about the next tier"
    "Fuck it, it's almost lunch time. Just put a bunch of ret abilities in there and call it good."
    "But, sir, what about balance? What about viability or even player choice?"
    "Eh, what was that?"
    "Choice, sir. The players are going to want choices, not just rehashed abilities."
    "It's lunchtime Johnson, I don't have time for balance. Just rename some abilities and maybe put on some fancy spell effects. How 'bout Ashbringer? Fanboys love that shit. Make it flashy enough and they won't even notice its all rehashed."
    "OK, but when we get back, I have a list of unique and innovative new ideas for how to make Ret fun, viable and engaging in PVE and PVP. Things like damage reflection and abilities that heal and damage simultaneously!"
    "Dammit Johnson, I told you that when we get back, it's all hands on deck to talk about how to buff mages! Just leave your ideas list with the intern in charge of Monk development!
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-02-18 at 10:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yeah, its cool looking at the talent tree for Holy, but shitty looking at it from a Ret PoV. and pretty shitty when you can just theorycraft whats best for most situations, but I understand that's very difficult to avoid. I kinda wish Paladin level 90 talents looked more like the Druid ones or Shaman ones. Rotation-changing or a pretty big deal. In PvP, all prism is is a 20 second cd nuke heal/dps ability that aoe heals. Dream of Cenarius and Improved Unleash(or whatever its called) are pretty damn rotation changing. The talents just feel less and less interesting the more you look at them, but maybe its just me.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    That's what happens when you take a SPEC'S talent tree from pre-MoP and give it to a CLASS. I can see the dev meeting when paladin talents came up:
    "So, what are we going to do for the tiers?"
    "Hmm...movement, CC, maybe some damage stuff. Probably need a HoPo thingy in there. OOOH and glittery spell effects!"
    "Perfect, Johnson. Any ideas on movement?"
    "Well... most ret players took PoJ since it was passive and easy..."
    "Great, add it in. But take out that HoPo generation when you get feared and stuff. Nobody likes that random nonsense!"
    "And...ret had that cool "gap closer" [snicker] Long Arm of the LOL"
    "Great, one more!"
    "And Holy had th-"
    "Holy, great! What about CC?"
    "Well, ret had Repent, and most took the shorter CD stun. I know it's against the dogma of the company, but they've also been asking for a snare, sir"
    "Hmmm...well, there ARE more ret paladins than rogues...let's give them a snare."
    "Sir, are...are you sure?"
    "Yes....BUT they have to PICK which of those 3 they want. Deliciously cruel..."
    "Ok...well what about the next tier"
    "Fuck it, it's almost lunch time. Just put a bunch of ret abilities in there and call it good."
    "But, sir, what about balance? What about viability or even player choice?"
    "Eh, what was that?"
    "Choice, sir. The players are going to want choices, not just rehashed abilities."
    "It's lunchtime Johnson, I don't have time for balance. Just rename some abilities and maybe put on some fancy spell effects. How 'bout Ashbringer? Fanboys love that shit. Make it flashy enough and they won't even notice its all rehashed."
    "OK, but when we get back, I have a list of unique and innovative new ideas for how to make Ret fun, viable and engaging in PVE and PVP. Things like damage reflection and abilities that heal and damage simultaneously!"
    "Dammit Johnson, I told you that when we get back, it's all hands on deck to talk about how to buff mages! Just leave your ideas list with the intern in charge of Monk development!



    ^^^^^^^

    This quote is WIN!

    Infracted for non-constructive posting. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-02-19 at 08:47 PM.
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  12. #12
    Using Seal of Insight is too much of a dps loss. Even with Battle healer doing more healing in pvp its still not worth it.

    I would love to see them make Glyph of Battle Healer a baseline ability for Ret without the Seal requirement though.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Using Seal of Insight is too much of a dps loss. Even with Battle healer doing more healing in pvp its still not worth it.

    I would love to see them make Glyph of Battle Healer a baseline ability for Ret without the Seal requirement though.
    Well I wouldn't go THAT far. Baseline to Ret but Seal of Insight still required. Make it able to self-heal also and heal the Ret for less when it does, kind-of like Smite.

    EDIT: Actually scratch that baseline to ret part. Baseline to all paladins.

  14. #14
    I'd like it just built into SoI, which would mean holy could melee for small heals. I don't like it being compared to atonement, since I think that is a great unique thing Disc Priests get, but it makes a lot of sense for ret too. I'd like it baseline for all seals for Ret, but that seems greedy.

    I am using Battle Healer currently, but man it's an aweful dps decrease. I think the new SoJ will be decent (20% dmg instead of 16%), so the glyph will be moot.

  15. #15
    well technically if you arent the focused target, battle healer is much better than using soj (unless you need the slow). 30% of damage before resilience >>>> 20% after res. only problem is rets are ALWAYS the target LOL its like a mean joke

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by itals View Post
    well technically if you arent the focused target, battle healer is much better than using soj (unless you need the slow). 30% of damage before resilience >>>> 20% after res. only problem is rets are ALWAYS the target LOL its like a mean joke
    Exactly. Unless it affected the paladin even half of the effect, even 1/3 of the effect, it won't ever be used in pvp.

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