View Poll Results: Should humans be able to use PVE trinkets in PVP ?

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  • Yes !

    85 64.89%
  • No!

    46 35.11%
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  1. #41
    So take away the only reason to pvp as alliance?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Cooldown on this ability should be 2,5 min.
    It would become completely pointless in PVP if they did that. Plus, PVE trinkets aren't better in PVP anymore.

  3. #43
    Just remove all the racial's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    There is no hidden roll. Only paranoia.
    "I was top dps and one of the 17 DPS below me won loot! CONSPIRACY!"
    "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time"
    -Bertrand Russell

  4. #44
    EMFH isn't a problem since nobody uses PvE trinkets in PvP anymore, since they'd be losing out on PvP Power and Resil.

  5. #45
    Dreadlord Spichora's Avatar
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    the first part of this post makes no sense. Removing racials would make it bland, but said blandness could be balanced out by a racial specialization?
    No, what I meant by it that was that every class would once again return its individuality. Like they, somehow, have now with their racial!

    Your racial spec idea sounds cool, but that's all it does. Coolness factor. Implementing something like it would be absolutely horrible in effect, and transform the game into 'Pick this race for this role.' Want an elven tank? Too bad; can't have that. The disparity would be incredibly, the Druid class would turn into an absolute cluster****. For instance.
    I know it might sound frightening: 4rth unique spec? what is that? As I said it is just optional spec that wont really change pace and style of the game very much. And I say yes to 'Pick this race for this role.', because every class has dedicated their culture and lifestyle to some specs, for example : Night elves where good hunters and druids, Humans paladins etc. I wont start saying what you people already know. So why not give them that advantage again in game too ? If the blood elves wont have so called unique tank spec, you can always pick old warrior, paladin or Death knight. Unique doesnt mean better, it would introduce only other skills and play style.

    Racial abilities force you into a niche. If you want the good build, you need to pick the correct race. Rather than the race you'd actually LIKE to pick. Human is just one example of this.
    That is exactly why I opened thread. Why should I be forced to pick the race I don't like just because it has exact racial my class needs. It is gave and I should be able to make my in-game world as I like yes? Yes, but when player cant pick his loved race it is very discouraging. I liked how you talked about shamans and mages that, that is exactly what I mean.

    By the way, a third thing I wanted to point out: If you want to debate something, it really helps if you were to actually write correctly. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to make spelling mistakes; I wouldn't want to grammar-nazi or anything the like, but honestly: When you start using (sometimes aggressive) abbreviations such as 'u' and 'omg,' people tend to believe you're not a terribly bright individual, and therefore, that you are probably wrong altogether.
    In other words: Rage less.
    Aye Aye sir ! Thanks for advice!

  6. #46
    I want it gone! why? cuz i play pvp and i'm stuck with being a ugly human in a fantasy game, dafuq? No i can't just race change the benefit is to ridiculous and i'm adicted to it.
    I would love to see this shit removed! so i can faceroll and play the mighty horde instead of ugly humans!"!!!!!!!!!!!

    " A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities "

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    3% PvP power permanently might not sound like a lot, but it does make the difference.
    Every time this argument comes up, I cringe.

    Here's what I posted on the EU Forums:

    Ofc they will. All of my Alliance are Human purely for the racial. People just think "OMG PVP POWER. OP" without taking into account what other racials others have. Humans ONLY have EMFH, a minor Spirit/Hit gain for Healers/Spriests and a small Exp increase for Melee but other than being able to equip a second trinket they have nothing. The only thing going for EMFH is that it scales throughout the expansion, as the trinkets improve the racial gets better.

    Orcs get Blood Fury, which for Melee gives about 2/3 of the same AP (Last I checked it was weaker for Casters in comparison) when cast as the trinket proc does. It's controlled, it stacks with the On-Use trinket and combined with Hardiness (15% duration reduction on Stuns) makes Orcs a strong race in PvP. Also get Axe Spec for more Exp with an Axe but that simply frees up a small level of Exp to be put into Crit.

    Trolls get Berserking and Beast Slaying (I'm almost certain this works against Ferals, though it might not. If not, don't include it). Stacks with On-Use Trinkets and CDs, gives Rogues/Ferals better energy regen, gives Casters mini heroism and the minor passive of shorter snares. Again, a strong race.

    Undead get Will of the Forsaken, essentially a second trinket that works against Sleep, Charm and Fears. While it does share a 30s CD with the Freedom trinket, it's still another CD you can use to avoid dying that other races don't have or something else to put pressure on Priests/Locks. They also get Touch of the Grave, which while not something that does exceptional damage its still more damage with a heal healing as much as it damages.

    Blood Elves get their silence, Tauren get their stuns. Both are situation but both can be used to lockout a healer for one last second and score a kill. Goblins have an additional gap closer or a minor damage hit and a passive haste buff.

    Compare those to the Alliance racials

    Every Man for Himself, ~3% PvP power.

    Shadowmeld, can be used to stop one cast against you or drop combat to restealth as a Rogue or a Druid. Marginally useful, but because the CD is 2 minutes it's fairly weak. You can't drink while Shadowmelded any more and you can't move without breaking it. Any dot breaks it too. 1% Nature damage reduction is lacking, considering the level of burst these days.

    Gift of the Naaru heals 20%, not sure if it's affected by Battle Fatigue. It's CD, once again, makes it weak. It's spread over a duration instead of an instant heal, which would much better as a CD. They get 1% Hit, a minor buff but most are generally hit capped and forging away from it, so it would free up a small amount of additonal Exp/Haste/Mast/Crit, same for Dwarves, Humans and Orcs. 1% shadow damage reduction is also lacking, considering the level of burst there days.

    Stoneform is slightly better than useless, as it's maintains it's damage reduction for it's duration while wiping all Poisons and Bleeds off of the caster. The best race for Shamans as Alliance and even that's only because they can't be Humans. Mace spec is a minor gain for Melee and a 1% frost damage reduction is lacking, considering the level of burst these days.

    Darkflight isn't terrible, as it stacks with some sprints and can be used to great effect by FCs. As a Rogue, you'd give up being a Human and it'd be a waste but as a Druid, Worgen is probably the best race for PvP. A minor damage reduction to Nature and Shadow damage is nice, but it's still minor. 1% Crit isn't much to write home about either.

    And Gnomes? Lol. What a joke. No idea if their racial shares a CD with the Medallion, and aside from a minor damage increase from daggers and 1h swords and a minor damage decrease from shadow, they have nothing. Easily one of the worst, if not the worst, Alliance PvP races.

    That leaves Pandaren. One of their racials requires you to eat, which most players don't. 250-300 of your main stat is probably a bigger gain than 1% Crit, Haste or Hit, but considering that you'd need to eat every time you die, it's a fairly weak racial. Bouncy is situational, and you should never be putting yourself in a position in PvP where that racial is required. A 4s incapactitate that requires Melee range sounds good, and for Pandaren Warriors that adds another CC, but Monks and Rogues don't gain much from this other than having a spare interrupt as it DRs with Sap/Gouge/Paralysis.

    So overall, the Horde has 3 Strong/Very Strong races while the Alliance has 1 Very Strong race and 2-3 races that you'll roll in the off chance you roll something Humans can't be. Personally, I'd complain that almost all of the Alliance races aren't even given a second thought by anyone who wants to play competitively or tries to min/max.

    tl;dr; By making the trinkets equal, you effectively give people no reason to roll Alliance from a competitive standpoint.
    And yes, while it looks like Humans will once again be top dogs in PvP (judging by the lack of intelligent design regarding PvE trinkets yet again) next patch, I'm not going to regret rerolling to Orc on my Warrior, Blood Elf on my Paladin and Undead on my Mage.

    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Racials aren't as game changing in PvE as they are in PvP.
    And that's why most of the top Guilds are Horde... right?
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2013-02-19 at 02:36 PM.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  8. #48
    They can't not let you use PvE items in PvP. That's just silly. What they need to do is either get rid of racials or even better, let you choose the racial you want at character creation.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Spichora View Post
    No, what I meant by it that was that every class would once again return its individuality. Like they, somehow, have now with their racial!
    An admirable idea, absolutely. But this individuality can be achieved purely cosmetically, which would have no real effect on gameplay.

    I know it might sound frightening: 4rth unique spec? what is that? As I said it is just optional spec that wont really change pace and style of the game very much. And I say yes to 'Pick this race for this role.', because every class has dedicated their culture and lifestyle to some specs, for example : Night elves where good hunters and druids, Humans paladins etc. I wont start saying what you people already know. So why not give them that advantage again in game too ? If the blood elves wont have so called unique tank spec, you can always pick old warrior, paladin or Death knight. Unique doesnt mean better, it would introduce only other skills and play style.
    I understand. The problem, however, lies in synergy. I've mentioned it before, but understand that each class has their own baseline set of abilities and weapon/armour choices. The 'racial specialization tree' would have to work in synergy with each class, which also means that each class should have abilities that work for each race that has access to them (like the old Priest racial spells).
    It is here that the problem starts. Basically, one class would be so much better for one race than it would be for others that it simply becomes incredibly unbalanced. Even if you decide not to pick your racial specialization option, you're still going to feel the benefits of the racial specialization option existing.
    Each class has baseline abilities that belong to their respective specs... And each spec uses baseline abilities that belong to other specs within that class.

    This wouldn't actually be so much of a problem, however, if WoW was not a competitive game. If it were a single-player or table-top multiplayer game, you can sacrifice some efficiency for coolness factor. But WoW has team-based progression with difficulty settings that do not care about your personal wishes for coolness factor. Such sacrifices cannot be made. Sure; you can sacrifice some... But I don't think you'll find many progression guilds that have a gnome as main tank, for instance. The racials such as they are are already enough of a balancing problem.
    That is exactly why I opened thread. Why should I be forced to pick the race I don't like just because it has exact racial my class needs. It is gave and I should be able to make my in-game world as I like yes? Yes, but when player cant pick his loved race it is very discouraging. I liked how you talked about shamans and mages that, that is exactly what I mean.
    I know, and I really do think that we largely agree on the subject. We're merely approaching the problem from different angles, which is why I'm more in favour of having the difference be purely cosmetic.
    Aye Aye sir ! Thanks for advice!
    You're very welcome. I'm really glad you didn't take it the wrong way.

  10. #50
    Berserking doesn't enhance energy regen.

    Also Thasssarian, your quoted post OOZES bias so very badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolcraft View Post
    EMFH isn't a problem since nobody uses PvE trinkets in PvP anymore, since they'd be losing out on PvP Power and Resil.
    I'm going to assume that you are being daft on purpose.
    Last edited by Dald; 2013-02-19 at 10:15 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I'm an advocate of removing racials in general. If it weren't for them, people would play what they liked rather than what's best, and I think the game needs to encourage that more. The human racial is definitely the best, but if they nerfed it, undead or something else would take over. Better to just remove them all, I'd say.
    I say, remove all racials. Then make EMFH baseline, rename it something like "Heroic Resolve" and replace that part of the trinket with something else.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Spichora View Post
    I looked through www.worldofwargraphs.com to see best pvp players and what I saw there r only that tricky humans in alliance on top of every class.
    and if u look through only alliance players there r no other races on list except humans !
    Also take into account that statistically, Human is the most played race in just about any game that gives you the choice of race (and where Human is available).

  13. #53
    at high level play id rather take orc/ud racial over human, double trinkets were nice before they nerfed half the stuff in the game, so its a lot easier to set up kills than zerg like a mongo hoping for a kill.

  14. #54
    Thats weird how come any "high rated" arena team on live or events (tournaments) I see is horde ?

    Thats weird. For such an "overpowered" ability to not be choosed by players 9 out of 10 times.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Thats weird how come any "high rated" arena team on live or events (tournaments) I see is horde ?

    Thats weird. For such an "overpowered" ability to not be choosed by players 9 out of 10 times.
    Citation needed.

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