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  1. #1

    "Just go holy" - A plea to the dev's from a Prot paladin

    I want to preface this by saying that the below post is going to be delivered to Blizz official forums once they are back up from maintenance. I am posting this here for a few reasons though...namely I would like input from the rest of you on suggestions for changes or implementations to help alleviate the woes of PROT (and, to a lesser degree Ret) PVP.

    "Uhh...don't need a melee. Can you go Holy?"

    So, I'm sure that by now, anyone who isn't Holy in PVP has already heard this at some point in MoP when asking to get an invite to anything PVP related. Whether its a competitive RBG invite, or even a points-capping 2s/3s, people just DO NOT WANT a paladin unless they are Holy. I've played as non-holy the entirety of my paladin career, spanning almost 6 years; prior to that I played a warrior, and ever since the swap (aside from 1 week in 3.0) it's felt like a second-rate citizen in PVP. Granted that Ret has been a BG hero against undergeared 1300 players, and the mystique of OMGBUBBLE has kept the class firmly planted on the weak side of balance and class-progression. But I'm talking about rated/competitive PVP; there's only so much fun to be had blowing up fresh max-level toons every 2-3 minutes.

    Now, recently at least, Ret has been getting some much appreciated attention from the dev's in terms of PVP viability buffs and dmg tweaks that apply to PVE and PVP. This is great, and as I said widely appreciated by [most of] the class. Granted, there are some complains about the buffs (shocking, I know) and suggestions or changes have been lobbied for in many other threads. Most of those suggestions have some merit, I think; but that is not what this thread is about or focusing on.

    This thread is about Prot paladins, and parity between tanks/FCs in PVP. Or lack thereof.

    First, before we go any farther, I want to say that I think ProtPal is in a stupendous place in PVE. I think the interaction with self/group healing, smart use of ShotR and our wealth of cooldowns and utility make ProtPal an extremely useful and desirable tank in PVE. My only regret is that all of those items I just listed do not translate to PVP. At all.

    By and large, I think we can all agree that removing vengeance from PVP was a good change. Tanks in PVP should be about control, survival, and being a nuisance. Tanks should NOT be about stacking up huge amounts of AP and 1-3 shotting things. It's fun (for us), but clearly not good gameplay for anyone. The problem that removing vengeance causes is lack of scaling (I know that's now a four-letter word around these parts, but I don't know what else to call it). See, with the implementation of active mitigation systems (Bravo, by the way....stellar ideas and very welcomed), proper tank play for survival revolves around our damage reduction and/or self-healing scaling with the incoming damage. This is fine in PVE, where encounter mechanics can be used cleverly to stack vengeance and boost survival/damage output, effectively rewarding good play. It is also fine that each tank has a different method of mitigating and/or healing the damage; to have homogenous systems would be no fun for anyone.

    The problem arrives when we try to transfer that to PVP.

    PVP in 5.x is all about 2 things: CC and Burst, the most effective forms of both of which are instant. This has gotten far out of hand, and seems to only be trending upward, but that's a topic for another time. The only counter for CC is trinket or dispel, and the only counter for burst is defensive cooldowns or LoS. I know it's not wise to consider abilities in a vacuum, so let's look at the tank spec's of classes as a whole, and see their methods for surviving or mitigating burst:

    Warrior (Prot)
    Mobility: Extremely high. Charge x1 or 2 depending on talents, intervene (with movement clearing) to allies or war banners, heroic leap (with movement clearing).
    Self-Heal: Second wind (%-based heal) passive below 35%, Shield Barrier absorbs(AP-based), Victory Rush if they can steal a KB.
    Anti-Melee: Passive 25% damage, Shield Block/crit block, disarm, demo shout, demo banner, aoe stun.
    Anti-Ranged: Passive 25% damage, spell reflect, demo banner, talentable ranged interrupt with Stormbolt.
    CC/peels: AOE fear (60 sec CD), AOE stun (20-40 sec CD), charge stun/Warbringer, AOE snare or root or interrupt (talents)
    Cooldowns: Shieldwall, Last Stand, Rallying Cry (Group), Zerk rage for anti fear/incap
    Weak to: Umm, not much. Dismantle can drop some defensive utility.
    Overall: King of the hill in terms of survival, control and mobility as a total package.

    Death Knight (Blood)
    Mobility: Fair; DKs focus more on slowing others than being mobile themselves. Death's Advance on a 30 sec CD prevents movement below 100%, and passively prevents <70%.
    Self-Heal: DS heals a minimum of 7% total HP. Can be augmented with Vamp Blood every minute. Talents for Death Pact (50% heal, 2min CD), Death Siphon (dmg -> heal, no CD), Conversion (RP -> %heal). I guess toss in blood-worms here.
    Anti-Melee: Passive 10% damage, high armor to account for no shield. DS creates a phys abs shield when used, based on heal amount.
    Anti-Ranged: Passive 10% damage, ranged silence (60sec CD in 5.2), AMS.
    CC/peels: DG, Glyphed DnD for slow, CoI, Chillblains talent for AOE slow and root on CoI, Asphyx talent for short CD ranged stun. Remoreselss Winter or Gorefiends for AOE stun/grip.
    Cooldowns: IBF (stun break/immunity), AMS, bone shield. Can choose Death Pact, Purgatory, or AMZ. Lichborne for anti-fear/self heal if talented.
    Weak to: Silence ruins their day. DS no longer gains healing from player sources, which really kinda "to the ground"-ed them as top tier FCs.
    Overall: Great choice for map control in terms of moving the opposition, but not at moving themselves. The changes to vengeance and DS really hurt their survival.

    Druid (Guardian)
    Mobility: Extremely high, moreso than warriors. Essentially immune to roots/snares, with incredible passive speed outdoors. Dash, Feral charge adds in extra mobility, as well as set bonuses. Stamp roar!
    Self-Heal: Can convert rage -> heal (AP based) in bear form. Can talent HotW and spam rejuv in bear form, or NV for dmg -> healing. Can talent Renewal (30% heal), NS for instant boosted HT, or Cenarion ward.
    Anti-Melee: Passive 25% damage and increased reduced crit chance, rage -> dodge, armor-based mastery.
    Anti-Ranged: Passive 25% damage and increased reduced crit chance, reduced spell damage baked in.
    CC/peels: Cyclone! Typhoon! Ursol's Vortex! Also, roots/natures grasp, talent choices including Mighty Bash and AOE disorient, bear charge immobilize, and Bear Hug stun. Ranged snare talent with Faerie Fire thing.
    Cooldowns: Barkskin (-crit % glyph), Might of Ursoc, Survival Insticts; rejuv spam HotW or NV healing with berserk/mangle spam. Symbiosis.
    Weak to: Long matches. Stacking debuff limits movement and really removes a big part of their toolkit.
    Overall: Extremely strong contender. Incredibly mobile, ability to guard nodes in stealth, excellent field control and group synergy with Ursols, stamp roar. Excellent dmg reduction through -crit% abilities.

    Monk (BrM)
    Mobility: Moderate. Roll x2 w/ speed or x3 depending on talents (or Tiger's Lust for a freedom). Spammable ranged AOE slow via Dizzying Haze.
    Self-Heal: Expel harm (15 sec CD, no CD if below 35%) as an AP based heal. Choice of Chi wave, Chi burst, Zen Sphere. Semi-spammable healing spheres.
    Anti-Melee: High avoidance class with many %increased dodge or parry passives/abilities, disarm.
    Anti-Ranged: Blanket silence baked into interrupt, Zen Med.
    CC/peels: Disable/root spammable, Dizzying haze/keg smash AOE slow. Breath of fire glyph for AOE disorient. Paralysis (now deadly reach baseline in 5.2), AOE stun on 45sec CD OR Ring of Peace.
    Cooldowns: Fort Brew, Guard, Avert Harm (group), Zen Med (anti-caster only). Can talent diffuse or dampen harm for additional CDs.
    Weak to: Stuns, fear; relying so much on avoidance, they suffer against stuns.
    Overall: Meh. Not great, certainly, but not the worst of the bunch.

    Paladin (Prot)
    Mobility: Moderate on paper, low in practice; HoF is rapidly dispelled at high level play. Talent for passive speed, mini-sprint on Judgement, or sprint on 45sec CD. No passive snare and no leap/roll type movement.
    Self-Heal: SoI (passive on melee), AP based, gives up a damage seal. Word of Glory, requires 1-3 HoPo, heals for ~30-35k @ 3. Bastion of Glory (from using ShotR) increases the amount healed, lasts 20 sec after using ShotR.
    Anti-Melee: Passive 15% damage, ShotR reduces phys damage for 3 seconds.
    Anti-Ranged: Passive 15% damage, ranged silence with Avenger's Shield.
    CC/peels: Stun on 60 sec CD, AOE blind on 2min CD. Can talent for snare OR 30 sec stun OR 1.7 sec cast repent (incap). Can glyph AS to daze 3 targets. Hand of protection/Hand of Sac/Hand of freedom (x2 if clemency)
    Cooldowns: GoAK (Shield wall 10 sec, 3min CD), DivProt (40% magic or 20% all 10 sec, 1min CD), Ardent Defender (20% all, 15% heal on deathblow 10 sec, 3min CD). Devo Aura (group -20% magic dmg, silence immune) for 6 sec, 3min CD. Bubble/HoP (drops flag)
    Weak to: Silence, disarm, fear. Silence prevents use of self healing AND cooldowns.
    Overall: Very poor mobility, very poorly scaling heals, very poor peels/control, but moderate amount of group utility. Problem is, all that utility is provided via a Holy Paladin, with none of the liabilities.

    So, it's pretty easy to see why Prot paladins aren't sought after. Compared to the other options, we don't really have anything going for us that one or all of the other tanks can't do better. The only thing we CAN do better is provide some group utility via hand spells, but a Holy paladin already brings that AND heals, without any of the sub-par FC/defender issues.

    So, what to do?

    I think it’s pretty clear that 1 of 2 things is going on. Either:

    1) Blizzard is OK with the fact that there is a VERY clear and distinct hierarchy of tank classes in the game, or
    2) They don’t know that and/or don’t know how to fix it.

    If the first option is accurate, then I suppose there is not much that this post will do, but I’m hoping that’s not the case. I’m hoping it’s the second option, and hoping that it’s something we can fix through discussion. First step of fixing any issue is figuring out what the problem is. Let’s look at the class breakdown of FC/defenders in PVP:

    Warrior =/> Druid >>>>>> Monk >> Blood >> Paladin

    There may not be the proper amount of >’s in there to really reflect the true disparity between warrior/druid and the rest of the options, as there really is a Grand Canyon sized difference. This difference is largely attributable to the fact that it is far better and more effective to avoid damage than it is to mitigate it. And mobility is the easiest and best way to do that; consequently, the classes that offer the highest mobility are warrior and druid, followed by monks.

    What I’d like to see here, for better parity between classes, is some mobility buffs in PVP. I won’t attempt to fix monks or BDKs, as I don’t have enough experience to do so (especially not without breaking PVE in the process). What I DO think will be a great buff for ProtPal is to make self-casted HOF’s undispellable. This would have NO impact in PVE, but in PVP would prevent simply buffing the enemy mages. It would allow the prot to actually escape something in this era of rapidly reapplied passive snares. Making it only prot and only-self casted HoF’s would not be gamebreaking, would allow for use of our speed talents, and would still be counterable via blanket silence.

    If you ARE caught up to as a FC, the next best thing is to CC/peel those attackers and buy some time/room to escape as opposed to standing there and trying to tank the damage. Again, we see great tools in the form of shockwave, Ursols, roots, piercing howl, here. Even monks and DKs have spammable snares/roots to help open distance. Aside from BoG (which SHOULD be baseline for Ret already and removed as a talent), there is no snare option even available to Prot Pala, and taking BoG means giving up your ONE reliable peel, Fist of Justice.

    I’d like to see Consecrate get some love here. We already have a glyph that turns it into a semi-DnD, in that we can place it with the reticule. I suggest adding a snare component to consecrate as well (either on the glyph, or baseline and the glyph can remove it, or whatever doesn’t seem too OP). Since consecrate is Prot only, it would not provide utility to ret or holy, but would add some nice utility to prot. Even in 5.2, the spell is pretty weak damage wise, and really only useful for breaking out stealth…is it so much to ask to give it some utility?

    Finally, if you can’t avoid and can’t escape the damage, you’ve got no choice but to stand there and take it. There are 2 ways to deal with incoming damage: mitigation or self-healing. In PVP, the things that make a great tank are the ability to shrug off damage that gets through. Healing is great, but it’s why you have healers. Since tanks no longer get AP from vengeance in PVP, self healing tanks (aka BDKs and Prot Pals primarily) really get shafted on their defenses. Sure, most tanks have some form of self heal, but BDK/Pal rely more heavily on it as defense versus warrior, druid and monk.

    I’d like to see PVP power increase damage and healing for tank spec’s by the full amount for non-%based heals(think circa 5.0 style). This would be a relatively benign buff to ALL FCs, and may even get some warriors out of second wind (doubtful).Granted FCs stack resil anyway, but the passive power would contribute at least a bit to their self healing. This should fix some of the survival disparity for the lower ranked tanks, and be a QoL increase for all without making them god-mode.

    Additionally, I’d like to see some survival increases to prot specifically, since what makes us great in PVE consequently makes us subpar in PVP. ShotR (and the associated Bastion of Glory buff) is amazing in PVE because it is a short term, on demand physical dmg redux. 3 sec duration means that it requires smart use to maximize, but if you can use it effectively it becomes a huge survival increase. I’d like to suggest that the 4pc PVP bonus extend the duration of ShotR by 3 seconds (for a total of 6.0). I should be clear that I’m asking that this be looped into the existing “non-holy” set, and not created a new “prot” set, as that’s far too much work for both item designers AND players. Clearly, this would be gamed by PVE’ers in the suggested incarnation, so perhaps it can be worked to only apply in BGs (otherwise we’d have perma-ShotR in PVE!), or perhaps something else could be created.

    I’d suggest Holy Wrath as a candidate for change if that was the case (since, again it is only available to prot). Make Holy Wrath debuff any target hit with the Denounce effect (reduced chance to critically strike). This would have no effect in PVE, would only be available to protection paladins, and would add HUGE group utility to prot in team fights and/or prevent getting trained. Since HW meteors its damage (and we don’t have Vengeance), it is a paltry amount of damage already in PVP. Attaching some utility function to it would make it a fun button to hit, instead of a “filler”. And the reduction of crit chance is certainly a “protection” theme far more than one that a healer would suggest.

    I’m not asking for prot buffs to be OP and return to the days of African Turtle Cleave where tanks were locking down and 2 shotting people. I want tanks to be fun for what they are and should be: juggernauts who are tough to bring down and who you WANT on the front lines of a group fight to control the enemy. Warriors are an excellent template to pull from, as are druids. But, I don’t want to be a warrior, or a druid; I want to be a Paladin and I want to be viable. And I think the changes suggested above a good step in the right direction to make us exactly that: viable. Not OP, and not a laughingstock.

    Because, not all of us are satisfied with being told: “Dude, just go Holy”.
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  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    I think that they need to bring vengeance back. They need to take an approach similar to hybrid off healing. Make it so that vengeance contribution in PvP is 20% that of PvE. Also, part of the problem was in Cata, rogues (and a few other select classes) slaughtered Prot Paly making them the LAST option for rated PvP. Now that role belongs to Bremaster, but there is still a negative aura stemming from cata for pvp prot paly's.

    I used to be prot in cata, but realized people wanted hpaly more than prot, hence i made the switch.

    I couldnt tell you the last time I saw a Prot Paly in RBG's since early cata. Sucks imo, but most all of the defensive CD's at prots disposal are immunity effects which cannot be used when carrying a flag (only reason to bring a tank class imo) where other tank classes defensive are actual defensive abilities.

  3. #3
    Problem Prot Pallys have is that they lack mobility and damage compared to Prot Warriors. Which is essentially the same problem Ret has in PvP.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    What about giving a version of Emancipate to protection as well as ret?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Problem Prot Pallys have is that they lack mobility and damage compared to Prot Warriors. Which is essentially the same problem Ret has in PvP.
    I don't think it's so much the damage of prot warriors, as much as it is the control and mobility that make them so good. Damage is what you bring ranged for, and I don't think it's fair or good gameplay to have high tank damage in PVP. But, I do agree with you that we lack damage as well...can't argue that. I just think we have bigger fish to fry first.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    What about giving a version of Emancipate to protection as well as ret?
    I thought about that, and it may be the easier choice/implementation, but it still doesn't solve the issue of GCD locked due to emancipate spam, which isn't enjoyable for anyone. Now, granted dispel-immune HoF may be a bit much; perhaps should be something like "Freedom now makes you immune to snares/roots for 3 sec after being dispelled. Effect does not trigger if the cooldown expires naturally" to be more fair to both sides.

    At any rate, hopefully it will get some attention. Sadly it's too long to post in the normal forums have to settle for PTR only...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #6
    Pally is more viable than people think, but there is a lot of things we could do to be brought up to war lvl

    Change something so were not so succeptible to silence AND disarm,
    Undispellable freedom or emancipate,
    Improve self heals
    Give back AS aoe silence and maybe make it aoe 3sec stun(to compete with shockwave)
    Improve SoI with either giving us the aoe SoI heal back or just buffing SoI
    Make the AW glyph heal tick for more
    Since we have so many skills that scale off vengance, give us some mechanic to increase the skills based off ap
    Maybe lower speed of light cd and let it break roots(same mechanic as safeguard)
    I also wouldnt mind getting the talent back from cata prot tree, cant remember name but it caused any self overhealing to create a protective shield around the paladin
    These are all just quick ideas of course

  7. #7
    Fairly sure that blizzard doesn't want to support tanks in pvp setting as in. (IE the removal of veng)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo View Post
    Pally is more viable than people think, but there is a lot of things we could do to be brought up to war lvl

    Change something so were not so succeptible to silence AND disarm,
    Undispellable freedom or emancipate,
    Improve self heals
    Give back AS aoe silence and maybe make it aoe 3sec stun(to compete with shockwave)
    Improve SoI with either giving us the aoe SoI heal back or just buffing SoI
    Make the AW glyph heal tick for more
    Since we have so many skills that scale off vengance, give us some mechanic to increase the skills based off ap
    Maybe lower speed of light cd and let it break roots(same mechanic as safeguard)
    I also wouldnt mind getting the talent back from cata prot tree, cant remember name but it caused any self overhealing to create a protective shield around the paladin
    These are all just quick ideas of course
    Yah, I know that I've spoken with you before about protpal as a FC currently. I agree, it's playable, but it's not really ideal or viable above 1500ish. Additionally, given the community's adherence to mob mentality, it's increasingly hard to even get an invite in the first place for a low-to-no rating RBG as an FC. Which is a shame, cause a well played prot pal will run circles around a FOTM class that's played poorly.

    You hit a lot of points that I covered, and I think that some sort of "PVP Vengeance" mechanic would do well to even out the parity of tanks. Something like, increases the defensive/self healing parts of your toolkit that scale with AP, but doesn't grant any offensive AP. I'm sure it'd be a nightmare to code, and there's probably something easier or more elegant as a solution, but given how much of a protpal's toolkit revolves around vengeance, not having it really hurts.

    Additionally, the bigger issue is utter lack of mobility and/or control, but we're on the same page there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Fairly sure that blizzard doesn't want to support tanks in pvp setting as in. (IE the removal of veng)
    So then, who exactly should be carrying flags or guarding nodes in organized PVP? Tanks [should] have a role in PVP, primarily one of control, mobility and distraction. Tanks should NOT be out-DPSing ANYONE, for sure. That's why Vengeance was removed. The sad side effect of that was that when the dust settled, some classes fared MUCH better than others in terms of remaining PVP viable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  9. #9
    Bumped/added to ur official forum post
    (without the prot is viable par lol)

  10. #10
    Warchief Henkdejager's Avatar
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    Welcome to shaman class since fucking wotlk enjoying it so far or ? resto or gtfo..
    Stuff

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So then, who exactly should be carrying flags or guarding nodes in organized PVP? Tanks [should] have a role in PVP, primarily one of control, mobility and distraction. Tanks should NOT be out-DPSing ANYONE, for sure. That's why Vengeance was removed. The sad side effect of that was that when the dust settled, some classes fared MUCH better than others in terms of remaining PVP viable.
    the reason for the removal of vengeance in pvp was because tanks were way over powered with it back when they added the vengeance blood dks were impossible to kill not only because of how much healing they done but also because of the insane amount of damage they done

    it seems that removing vengeance seems to have removed their viability
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2013-02-19 at 11:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Tank Specs in PvP. Your argument is invalid.

    They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.

  13. #13
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henkdejager View Post
    Welcome to shaman class since fucking wotlk enjoying it so far or ? resto or gtfo..
    That is wonderful however Shaman concerns are not our concerns and we should not be neglected if you are. That is an entirely differerent issue and does not belong here.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Fixing Prot FC for PVP?

    The same things needed for Ret:

    1) Huge buff to self WoG (100% maybe) and/or the same for Sacred Shield
    2) Divine Protection remove a CC and/or used while CC'd like Barkskin
    3) Big RBG utility like Smoke/Solar/Grip/Area CC

    Prot exclusive:

    1) Emancipate
    2) Speed of Light on 30 secs CD or less OR Double the duration of LAotL ORdouble PoJ OR Some kind of Leap/Intervene/Blink


    There: Ret and Prot on a good spot, not OP but worth taking. All this are MUST for Prot/Ret PVP to be working.

    ---EDIT---

    Where is your post on Blizz forum so we can +1 it?
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Fairly sure that blizzard doesn't want to support tanks in pvp setting as in. (IE the removal of veng)
    That, I think is the bigger issue here. Tanks don't belong in PvP, at least they shouldn't be there for professional PvP, but there they are. If Warriors tanks exist in PvP, it's because of their mobility and control. They also don't do too badly in damage either.

    What needs to be done is that tanks shouldn't really be a requirement for RBGs. As it is the biggest issue putting one together is finding one. I'm sure Warriors would rather be ARMs or Fury for PvP, rather then tank spec.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    Tank Specs in PvP. Your argument is invalid.

    They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.
    I...did you....what?

    Bolded the part that made me facepalm.

    The ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT FLAG CARRYING. Herp.


    -----

    Anyway, for those asking/interested, I have it posted here.

    It is NOT supposed to be a return to ATC, nor a return to LOL UNKILLABLE BLOOD DK. Tanks exist in organized PVP for the purposes of flag carrying and/or node defense. I don't want them to be damage powerhouses, nor take a whole team of players to bring down by themselves. I just would like to see some parity and equality among tank specs, just as we all do for melee specs as well. Once we get that, I think issues like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    What needs to be done is that tanks shouldn't really be a requirement for RBGs. As it is the biggest issue putting one together is finding one. I'm sure Warriors would rather be ARMs or Fury for PvP, rather then tank spec.
    will be less difficult to overcome, because you'll have more than 1-2 classes to choose from. I'm willing to bet that even some Rets would MUCH rather go to RBGs as Prot, than reroll/relearn Holy.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-02-19 at 11:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    Tank Specs in PvP. Your argument is invalid.

    They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.
    They very much do care, and have stated that they want ALL roles to have a place in PvP. Thus... RBG's. FC's are tank classes.

    The saddest thing I can think of about FCing as Prot Nairobi, is that Dark Apotheosis Demo locks are arguably better FC's than Prot paladins. =/

  18. #18
    will be less difficult to overcome, because you'll have more than 1-2 classes to choose from. I'm willing to bet that even some Rets would MUCH rather go to RBGs as Prot, than reroll/relearn Holy.[/QUOTE]

    This ^^^, i actually enjoy fcing/playing prot, even today(2k cr as prot pally)i think it takes more skill because of cd management than warriors do with all their passives

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral
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    What's wrong with Holy?

  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    What's wrong with Holy?
    Nothing. But a lot of us don't necessarily enjoy the playstyle nearly as much, if at all, and yet want to play our paladins in competitive PVP. I don't much enjoy healing on my paladin, I do it, because Ret sucks and sometimes our PvP comp calls for it, but I would much rather Resto druid or Disc priest if I had to heal, they are much more enjoyable.

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