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  1. #501
    Even with whatever our item levels were getting scaled to for heroic testing I never really struggled to perform.

    Maybe other classes just gain more from the new trinkets and meta than we do.

  2. #502
    Even in current gear, 2H-Frost - 125k, Unholy - 117k (Festerblight and traditional are almost exactly equal).

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    they should make Threat of Thassarian increase Plague Strike damage as well as Frost Strike
    please stop. dw frost is fine.

    They need to buff unholy. I want to play unholy again dammit.
    Last edited by valliant13; 2013-03-05 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #504
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    - Might of the Frozen Wastes includes melee damage by 20%, up from 15%.
    - Icy Talons increases attack speed by 30%, up from 25%.
    - Threat of Thassarian now increases Frost Strike damage by 50%, up from 40%.

    I don't really know why they buff frost, again... And only give unholy a minor buff, I guess Blizzard look at simcrafts and tweak classes based on that lol.

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
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  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Even with whatever our item levels were getting scaled to for heroic testing I never really struggled to perform.

    Maybe other classes just gain more from the new trinkets and meta than we do.
    Well, that's quite the small sample size o_O We have a Balance druid that crushes EVERYONE in our raids, but yet most would say they're underpowered too.

    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    please stop. dw frost is fine.

    They need to buff unholy. I want to play unholy again dammit.
    The issue is with the numbers at ilvl535, with the last PTR build numbers, basically all 3 DKs were in the gutter. Unholy was at least in the middle of the 3 dps specs for DKs, DW was considerably lower though.

    Not surprising that they gave a last minute snap tweak to some more DK passives, given those numbers.


    But hey, Blizzard doesn't react to Simcraft numbers =p

  6. #506
    Nothing to do with sims. The devs' testing in T15 showed unholy ahead by a significant margin. So like I said earlier, there must be some heroic bosses with tons of high-health adds and/or important execute phases.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...91481643192321

    Magdalena has a point, though. If unholy and frost are roughly equal performance, most players will use frost for several reasons. First, they've been frost for all of MoP so far. But also cleave, ranged damage, and burst capabilities. Thing is, the proper way to address that stuff isn't to tune unholy to do more single target damage than frost, it's to fix those mechanical disparities.

    Since that obviously isn't going to happen before 5.2 goes live later today, the devs chose to buff frost. I expect some players will choose unholy, because it's a more valid choice in 5.2 than it was in 5.0/5.1. But for those of us that enjoy frost there's no reason to consider switching.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-03-05 at 03:43 PM.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Nothing to do with sims. The devs' testing in T15 showed unholy ahead by a significant margin. So like I said earlier, there must be some heroic bosses with tons of high-health adds and/or important execute phases.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...91481643192321
    Was a joke, but okay. A few bosses unholy will pull ahead, that's for sure. But frost will still be the most played spec.

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
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  8. #508
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    ...LOL@ PvE

    I think i'm in love with these frost DK buffs, from a PvP perspective.... AWESOME!

    Now if only IBF was a 2 minute CD...

    Words to live by.

  9. #509
    Yes, agreed. Unholy would have to be WAY ahead for most players to switch, even with the 5.2 changes. Maybe it was, before these most recent buffs, but not any more.

  10. #510
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    - Might of the Frozen Wastes includes melee damage by 20%, up from 15%.
    - Icy Talons increases attack speed by 30%, up from 25%.
    - Threat of Thassarian now increases Frost Strike damage by 50%, up from 40%.

    I don't really know why they buff frost, again... And only give unholy a minor buff, I guess Blizzard look at simcrafts and tweak classes based on that lol.
    Where did you see this? All I see on the patch notes are 15% to might, 25% to talons

    Words to live by.

  11. #511
    Many of you are making a pretty large assumption: that Unholy was behind Frost before this latest round of buffs.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Where did you see this? All I see on the patch notes are 15% to might, 25% to talons
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...sues-part-iii/

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Nothing to do with sims. The devs' testing in T15 showed unholy ahead by a significant margin. So like I said earlier, there must be some heroic bosses with tons of high-health adds and/or important execute phases.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...91481643192321

    Magdalena has a point, though. If unholy and frost are roughly equal performance, most players will use frost for several reasons. First, they've been frost for all of MoP so far. But also cleave, ranged damage, and burst capabilities. Thing is, the proper way to address that stuff isn't to tune unholy to do more single target damage than frost, it's to fix those mechanical disparities.

    Since that obviously isn't going to happen before 5.2 goes live later today, the devs chose to buff frost. I expect some players will choose unholy, because it's a more valid choice in 5.2 than it was in 5.0/5.1. But for those of us that enjoy frost there's no reason to consider switching.
    Interesting tweet.

    This is the one thing that is slightly annoying about the dev team/GC. They give out info like rppm coefficients for the new meta gems, but then say they don't want to give out all their internal numbers so players aren't stuck on percentage discrepancies between specs.

    They don't like players relying on their own means of figuring out where specs are compared to each other, and refuse to use them as actual proof one way or another... but then they also won't give us that info so we have (technically) accurate numbers.

    Simcraft/raidbots is all we have to go on, I am not sure why they disown that data when it's brought up to them.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    Many of you are making a pretty large assumption: that Unholy was behind Frost before this latest round of buffs.
    Everything I saw said unholy was still in the gutter and frost was still ahead. so, either the sim stuff ive read on EJ and this very site is way off or people are posting completely inaccurate sim logs.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Well, that's quite the small sample size o_O We have a Balance druid that crushes EVERYONE in our raids, but yet most would say they're underpowered too.
    It's a small sample size I know, but I trust my guild to not underperform. If I'm above average in our testing it's probably because dw frost is a better than average spec.

    Personal opinions aside, we will have plenty of new data in a few days.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2013-03-05 at 04:14 PM.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Yes, agreed. Unholy would have to be WAY ahead for most players to switch, even with the 5.2 changes. Maybe it was, before these most recent buffs, but not any more.
    A lot of people don't know how to play unholy properly and pick frost coz of that. Not the case here in t15 tho, but in general.

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
    World 4 in SoO (25MAN)
    MY DK

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Simcraft/raidbots is all we have to go on, I am not sure why they disown that data when it's brought up to them.
    Raidbots is real. But we don't have raidbots, because the content isn't live yet. Raidbots data won't be useful/actionable/interesting until we've been raiding T15 for two weeks.

    Simcraft can usually be used to compare specs of the same class, but Magdalena said that the unholy profile wasn't working properly, so... not yet.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Raidbots is real. But we don't have raidbots, because the content isn't live yet. Raidbots data won't be useful/actionable/interesting until we've been raiding T15 for two weeks.

    Simcraft can usually be used to compare specs of the same class, but Magdalena said that the unholy profile wasn't working properly, so... not yet.
    Well, I was talking in a general sense, I know WoL for T15 aren't out :P

    I do agree that it may take a bit before all the models are working as well as they can, but as a whole, especially late in expansions, they're typically pretty solid.


    All in all, as a player, it's all I have to go by, as far as removing skill from equation and arriving at basic DPS benchmarks. Until the Devs give us more to work with, which will never happen.

  19. #519
    Sure. But the devs do internal testing in raids, and they have "DPS bots" that can perfectly execute priorities, so they have access to info we don't. I agree that before these buffs we had no reason to think that unholy was so far ahead of frost. But I have no problem accepting that we were wrong, particularly when it results in buffs!

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Sure. But the devs do internal testing in raids, and they have "DPS bots" that can perfectly execute priorities, so they have access to info we don't. I agree that before these buffs we had no reason to think that unholy was so far ahead of frost. But I have no problem accepting that we were wrong, particularly when it results in buffs!
    Remember to you the quote system :P Not always easy to see figure out who the reply are for. Not speaking just for you, but in general. It makes having a conversation much more smooth for both parts if it's clear who the reply is for

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
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