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  1. #101
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    OK, I have made some calculation for Frostbolt.
    At 30k spell power, we have :
    "+52%" => 191%*30k = 57.3k damages
    "+32%" => 155%*30k*1.15 = 46.5*1.15 = 53.5k damages
    Base damage ignored (~1.5k/2k). The debuff damage is multiplicative.

    In short 1.91 > 1.78 (1.55*1.15).

    Easy solution : remove FB's debuff and add a 20% PvP nerf like Frost bomb.
    The answers is 42
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    can someone on ptr see if they changed the arcane charge again??? (ive been hearing about 60% damage 180% mana cost......)
    Tier set bonus.



    The new changes are strange. 3%, in and of itself, is not much, but it is what the nerf stands for that has me confused.

    If they decided to nerf Arcane (remember, in the same patch they have buffed pretty much everyone else) it means that in their internal numbers, Arcane was still over-performing last patch.

    This just does not sync with what was being reported back from the PTR. Arcane was actually slightly under-performing. I personally was performing better with my frost spec than with my Arcane (I consider myself significantly more 'skilled' with the Arcane spec). I was also beating my Arcane results with my fire spec (I am a terrible fire mage). Good firemages were handily destroying me.

    I don't understand how Blizzard is testing the performance of these specs. There wasn't even enough time to test and gather any meaningful data with the previous nerf, so I am not sure what they are basing their nerf on.

    Sure, they probably have internal builds which people inside Blizzard play with. But even on those they could not have had enough time to test it the changes of the previous builds. Just basic RNG and regular statistical variance would not allow for it.

    Now some can argue that instead of 'physically' testing out the changes, Blizz instead uses some kind of internal tool similar to SimC, however, if that is the case, then we are forced to ask, why didn't they just use that tool earlier to balance the numbers in the previous build anyway? As in, if they have some 'special' way to run 1000s of tests in record time, they could have just 'balanced the numbers' earlier and not have to make adjustments like the 3% nerf we see here.

    The entire ordeal reeks of desperation. Its like a last ditch effort to do something. But what? Kill Arcane (as some say)? If so, why? If not, then does Blizz actually think they have viable evidence to suggest Arcane was OP last patch? Are we, the testers doing something fundamentally wrong when we report that Arcane was in no way OP last patch?

    How can they even gauge the changes to the system fast enough, especially given that they buffed so many other classes simultaneously?
    Are they planning a massive series of hotfix patches post launch (I am almost certain that they are, there is no other way this can work out)?


    Or is the answer in fact what many here have already surmised, that being, the Blizzard really has no idea wtf they are doing and it has come down to throwing random numbers around like playing blind darts and hoping something hits. If that really is the scenario, how pointlessly tragic this entire ordeal is.


    Even if Arcane is on par with Fire, that point is now mute.
    The sheer volatility of the performance of the spec and the evident lack of confidence the players will now have in the developers (as well as the lack of any faith players would have in the devs knowing wtf they are doing), will make investing in the spec as a long term viable solution futile.

    If Arcane dies, it may not even be due to numbers, but due to the simple fact that the spec's performance is too erratic. It seems no one knows wtf is going on with the spec. Not even the devs.



    Either way, scout out some crit gear boys, seems like magekind is going back to burning things again.

  3. #103
    spot on zomgdps i honestly dont know what they are doing and HOW they are tuning the numbers but they seem to ignore the feedback from players from ptr.......

    oh and thanks for that tier bonus....i forgot about that zzzzz

    whats more odd if they are buffing every other class(above average) but arcane mages....... are they really just putting random numbers in???i mean they worked hard to get arcane structure working just feels like last second desperation number tuning .........hopefully they will realise it before the patch hits and dont make stupid move again in 5.3 and "buff" arcane again mid way through tier.....
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2013-02-22 at 08:32 AM.
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  4. #104
    one thing i remember back in cata when mop was in beta was frost would be viable for raiding not saying its not bad dmg just wish there was better i'm alright with it not saying i'm completely happy with it.

    That being said i remember something GC said was lose control for dmg i just kinda wish they remove the slows from frost spells make it a glyph be like (remove slow effects from FB FFB and increase there dmg by like 10%) random numbers i'm bad with math. would be nice to see something like that but pretty sure it won't happen
    Last edited by Wickedsage; 2013-02-22 at 08:40 AM.

  5. #105
    ZOMGdps, youu don't even consider Frost for 5.2? You are only primarily comparing Arcane and Fire? I just love how people "ignore" frost! Get used to it, frost will be the best in 5.2 and I can't wait to see quite a few mages struggle to learn the spec.

    Frost being the top spec for mages = dream come true. I'm tired of hearing all these *high/top-end* raiders say "wtf can't do fire have to go arcane" and vise-versa, bought time frost has a chance to shine.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie240 View Post
    ZOMGdps, youu don't even consider Frost for 5.2? You are only primarily comparing Arcane and Fire? I just love how people "ignore" frost! Get used to it, frost will be the best in 5.2 and I can't wait to see quite a few mages struggle to learn the spec
    Cant imagine a spec that is capping on stats suddenly to become good, plus it still has problems in raids that fire simply doesn't, so unless fire is over 5% behind frost, fire will indeed be the spec to play.

  7. #107
    It is true, frost is inherently behind the other speccs just because of the capping of secondary stats (it is actually quite the same problem with elemental shaman); frost does decent dmg, but it lacks the individual, the gimmik, or however you call it, that does not just make it good, but the best specc.
    The only gimmik where frost shines are fights where you can use overpowered frostorb on many low-life adds who need to die fast, but that rarely happens in raids.

  8. #108
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie240 View Post
    ZOMGdps, youu don't even consider Frost for 5.2? You are only primarily comparing Arcane and Fire? I just love how people "ignore" frost! Get used to it, frost will be the best in 5.2 and I can't wait to see quite a few mages struggle to learn the spec.

    Frost being the top spec for mages = dream come true. I'm tired of hearing all these *high/top-end* raiders say "wtf can't do fire have to go arcane" and vise-versa, bought time frost has a chance to shine.
    People are soft-capping haste and nearly soft capping crit in 5.1 gear. Where on Earth do you expect people to go from there? Frost might be "strong" in early 5.2; but it will not last.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    More nerfs to Arcane. JUST WHAT WE NEEDED.

    We're already broken. Why are we being broken more?
    Nerfed to the ground. I really don't understand blizzard.

    Arcane/scorch was overtuned ? Yes. But those nerf when arcane is already struggling on PTR are just ridiculous.
    There is something we don't know ? The number of playing mages is to high and blizzard want some of us to re-roll ?

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannemmar View Post
    Nerfed to the ground. I really don't understand blizzard.

    Arcane/scorch was overtuned ? Yes. But those nerf when arcane is already struggling on PTR are just ridiculous.
    There is something we don't know ? The number of playing mages is to high and blizzard want some of us to re-roll ?
    They may have DPS numbers from H T15 equipped Mages, something that isn't available to us on the PTR iirc.

  11. #111
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Cant imagine a spec that is capping on stats suddenly to become good, plus it still has problems in raids that fire simply doesn't, so unless fire is over 5% behind frost, fire will indeed be the spec to play.
    For people to switch massively to Frost, it need both Fire and Arcane 5% behind. Maybe more 10% than 5%.

    For the frost capping, we have;
    GCD haste cap : 14k haste.
    Shatter crit cap : 6.6k crit with 27k intel and 7.2k with 25k intel (raid buff).

    The shatter cap will be obtained this patch and the haste cap will be near.

    calculation detail :
    haste : 1.5=1.05*1.07*haste_gear => haste_gear=1.5/(1.05*1.07)=33.51*425=14242 haste
    crit : 28%=5%+(intel/2250)+(gear/600)
    => if intel=27k then gear=600*(28-5-12)=6600 crit
    => if intel=24.75k then gear=600*(28-5-11)=7200 crit
    The answers is 42
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    They may have DPS numbers from H T15 equipped Mages, something that isn't available to us on the PTR iirc.
    But arcane goes over no significant cap, it wont scale any better from haste as we are allready haste soft capping, we will be gcd capping a lot with all the haste during hero, mastery scales significantly less dps wise than crit for fire. I don't really see where the dps would come from, and to make it worse the gear is itemized in such a way that we would have lots and lots of crit that is a fairly weak stat. Maybe am wrong here, but thats just how I see it atm. Plus its still pretty immobile spec, even more than before as no scorch to cast, so everything but Arcane barrage and bomb refresh needs you to be rooted.

  13. #113
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    But arcane goes over no significant cap, it wont scale any better from haste as we are allready haste soft capping, we will be gcd capping a lot with all the haste during hero, mastery scales significantly less dps wise than crit for fire. I don't really see where the dps would come from, and to make it worse the gear is itemized in such a way that we would have lots and lots of crit that is a fairly weak stat. Maybe am wrong here, but thats just how I see it atm. Plus its still pretty immobile spec, even more than before as no scorch to cast, so everything but Arcane barrage and bomb refresh needs you to be rooted.
    You make correct points but Arcane always scales incredibly well with base SP/Int due to its Mastery. Regardless of the fact they might not be Mastery capping and whatnot; Mastery always will let Arcane scale very well.

  14. #114
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    It seem that Arcane scale better with mastery.
    The gear scaling come from Intellect on gear. The 535/541 heroic have 30%/40% more intel than 500+ gear.

    I think that it's the result of they're internal testing with there expected rotation on BiS gear.
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  15. #115
    wouldnt frost scaling issues be kinda dealt with for a while if blizz just brings back a damaging DF back? Mastery would scale better and we'd have an attack that doesnt have issues in PvP. (and i also love me some huge numbers xD).

    and i really dislike the changes for frostbolt being reverted. unlike arcane the stacks are put on the enemy and not on yourself.

  16. #116
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obc View Post
    wouldnt frost scaling issues be kinda dealt with for a while if blizz just brings back a damaging DF back? Mastery would scale better and we'd have an attack that doesnt have issues in PvP. (and i also love me some huge numbers xD).

    and i really dislike the changes for frostbolt being reverted. unlike arcane the stacks are put on the enemy and not on yourself.
    A spell that are instant with a 30s CD, that don't scale with haste but with mastery, a lot of frost mage want it back. but dream is still dream.
    For frost pvp, they can simply put a passive that nerf FB, FFB and IL by 20% against player. And remove this debuff.

    Frost is good with a fast gameplay, not with a long ramp-up.

    PS : I really would love a DF that crit for 1M on boss (like Elegon)
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  17. #117
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obc View Post
    wouldnt frost scaling issues be kinda dealt with for a while if blizz just brings back a damaging DF back? Mastery would scale better and we'd have an attack that doesnt have issues in PvP. (and i also love me some huge numbers xD).

    and i really dislike the changes for frostbolt being reverted. unlike arcane the stacks are put on the enemy and not on yourself.
    Possibly, but could perhaps only serve as a band-aid fix for the real problem at the moment; which is Blizzard have almost no clue what they are doing.

    I don't understand why they would nerf Arcane based on BiS gear that no one can obtain for at least a week. I'm also guessing that the rotations would be done in near full BiS gear for 5.2; which could take months to obtain. If they are nerfing based upon gear that won't become available to the vast majority of players until very-late 5.2; I really question why.
    I'd prefer to be nerfed-mid patch but still be "viable" throughout and competitive with Fire. At the moment Fire's going to be king of all, and Blizzard will realise they again made this mistake, buff Arcane so it's "viable" once more and we'll have to gear switch again. It's really, really frustrating.

  18. #118
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    The problem actually is that we can only test with but we will have quickly 522+ gear (from normal).
    The difference is more important between LFR/normal than normal/BiS.
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  19. #119
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    Just an idea but as frost we could always use int/haste gemming instead of just haste. Its quite a difference especially with quite a few more gem slots on gear in 5.2.

    I'm still using int/haste gemming since I don't have LotC yet and I've only got 5.5k haste at ilvl 498.
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  20. #120
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Just an idea but as frost we could always use int/haste gemming instead of just haste. Its quite a difference especially with quite a few more gem slots on gear in 5.2.

    I'm still using int/haste gemming since I don't have LotC yet and I've only got 5.5k haste at ilvl 498.
    A possibility, yes, but the reality is that 2xHaste will still outweigh 1 Intellect; meaning you're forcing a DPS loss and therefore will not play optimally. IIRC Frost doesn't scale as well with Intellect and Fire/Arcane do; which doesn't help matters either.

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