Thread: 5.2 tuning pass

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  1. #41
    Seems legit. The damage increases looked on the line for the specs - combat received better buffs because it was noticeably behind the other two.

    Oh well, going assa/sub next patch.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  2. #42
    Here we go again, why buff Vitality and not SS and Eviscerate instead? Rogues complain about passive dmg (especially for combat), why on earth they don't even try to make combat dmg a bit less passive?
    Answer: PVP balance

  3. #43
    As far as I can tell the first round with the added 5% to Vitality (25% -> 30%) was to bring combat up closer to assassination by increasing Combat's single target dps by about 4%.
    Now they're adding yet another 5% (30% -> 35%) which would then be just shy of another 4% dps for Combat, while at the same time buffing assassination by around 3.5% overall.

    Doesn't seem like the relationship between the two specs has changed at all due to the latest round of buffs. If anything, it might make crit and haste more attractive to assassination rogues in comparison to mastery as the damage percentages are shifted towards dispatch and envenom slightly.

    Or am I missing something?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I don't think this is related to that but...

    Slice and Dice works for combat and sub in pve. For mutilate, the only thing it does is provide a pleasingly enhanced attack speed. While this is nice, a hell of a lot of rogues complain about it, and even though I'm not a big fan of that point of view, I do think that a pure melee class should offer quite a bit of diversity in the three specs- and currently we do not.

    More importantly- slice and dice is on auto-refresh for assassination, and has a very long duration. This means that it could, honestly, be omitted without damaging the rotation, and whatever it would be replaced with would likely be pretty thrilling. The assassination rotation features rupture timing and envenom maximizing, and as such it is, broadly speaking, the simplest rogue rotation.

    I would like to see a poison bottle finisher, or any kind of finisher that is on a cooldown but is powerful.

    Anyway, I think they buffed yellow damage because that's the more interesting damage- and because mutilate is in no danger of becoming some uberspec in pvp with such a change (though it will probably become much more defensible with such a change).
    Ever since finding out that slice and dice actually counts as haste for the real PPM system, removing it has now just turned into a dilemma for me. On one hand, less passive damage and more active damage is awesome, but on the other hand removing SnD sacrifices a huge chunk of the value of anything using the real PPM system. In the end, though, I think it'd be nice to get away from passive damage. What I'd like to see as well is nerfing Deadly Poison and having mutilate/dispatch deal part of their damage as poison.

  5. #45
    I was also under the impression that RPPM ignored slice and dice- I thought the point of such a system was to remove the advantages rogues have always had for being a fast dual wield autoattack based class, and pat little timmy the 2 handed burst guy on the head and say "there there, it's ok, you don't have to give ANYTHING up, not even procs!". When GC tweeted that, I changed my mind quite a bit about RPPM. Slice and dice is always a pack of damage, a huge amount of damage with every button press. I really like the way it scales with sub's mastery too. I get that a lot of WoW players like the big numbers- and honestly, their utility in pvp is undeniable- but I really like the ordered way of attacking that the rogue has.

  6. #46
    So I wonder why sub was left out of this buffing. The 16% to 20% sv only brought it to live assassination these last buffs put it behind again.

  7. #47
    Is sub simming poorly in, say, ilvl 530 gear, compared to mutilate?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Is sub simming poorly in, say, ilvl 530 gear, compared to mutilate?
    Sims don't seem very accurate for sub, Simc puts it in high place among all specs and at the highest between rogue specs but we all know it's broken right now...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I think that is right. It is only the initial Envenom hit.

    But on average a current BIS Rogue is doing 9-10% of its damage with Envenom. A 20% buff is therefore a ~2% overall damage increase.

    Dispatch is ~10% of overall damage and so a 15% increase is ~1.5% overall.

    So this should be ~3.5% overall.

    Hopefully my napkin maths is correct
    Then no, it isn't a 2% gain. Offhand I think I have ~40k attack power as assassination. 5cp is 56% as damage which is ~22k damage from attack power and then the tooltip is showing a buff from an additional 2k to 2.4k. So pre mastery, live envenom would be ~24k and ptr would be ~24.4k. Thats not 20% to total envenom damage.

    Now its entirely possible its just that the datamined tooltip isn't correct. But hovering over the tooltips on the front page is still showing 56% of ap.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-02-22 at 06:35 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I was also under the impression that RPPM ignored slice and dice- I thought the point of such a system was to remove the advantages rogues have always had for being a fast dual wield autoattack based class, and pat little timmy the 2 handed burst guy on the head and say "there there, it's ok, you don't have to give ANYTHING up, not even procs!". When GC tweeted that, I changed my mind quite a bit about RPPM. Slice and dice is always a pack of damage, a huge amount of damage with every button press. I really like the way it scales with sub's mastery too. I get that a lot of WoW players like the big numbers- and honestly, their utility in pvp is undeniable- but I really like the ordered way of attacking that the rogue has.
    To me the fact that SnD impacts (a lot) on RPPM is annoying - our damage it's not only tuned about the huge attack speed, but also about the fact we get substantially more procs form trinkets/enchants giving us a lot of uptime.

    When i say that i want SnD removed, it exactly for the reason above. Too much power and damage tied to a single ability which makes up for the majority of damage for all the three specs.

    We're by default a fast attacking class - we're the only ones using daggers. SnD as combat is fine because of slow weapons. They dps cycles can be improved without making us a whack-a-mole game i think (different finishers, debuffs to juggle).
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  11. #51
    SnD is one of the things that gives the class a painful ramp up time and the passive damage thats been commented about
    Personally I don't like it either.

    The extra damage on dispatch might make an execute phase actually feel like it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Inequs View Post
    SnD is one of the things that gives the class a painful ramp up time and the passive damage thats been commented about
    Personally I don't like it either.
    It doesn't have to do with ramp-up time. If you've bothered taking a look at it, the buff doesn't change beyond time-length based on how many CPs you use, meaning you can use 1CP on it at the start of any fight and keep it up for the remainder of the fight without too much difficulty.
    The problem is the "keep it up for the remainder" part; we Rogues HATE having to use Slice and Dice on anything other than a Combat rogue because it means we can't use our hardest-hitting abilities as often as we'd like.

    However, if you're a PvP Rogue, then I can see why you'd say "painful ramp up time"; getting SND active (for a Sub rogue) means another non-Eviscerate finisher, which means you get no burst or real damage for a while.

    ...so which were you talking about?
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    My rogue

  13. #53
    Deleted
    I always welcome buffs to rogues probably as any other rogue does but even with those buffs I wonder how well we will do compared to other classes. I cant remember the last time a raidleader said "oh but we need a rogue too for the raid, rogues are pretty good."

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    I cant remember the last time a raidleader said "oh but we need a rogue too for the raid, rogues are pretty good."
    It was 12 months ago when we had a legendary, how'd you forget?

    Back on topic, I think I figured out why we've been getting Vitality buffs: It's actually a buff to people that want to use two 2.6-speed weapons. In theory, the difference between the offhand types would show 2.6-speed offhands benefitting a lot more from a passive AP buff than 1.8 daggers.
    I wonder what the math will look like between the two now...
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    My rogue

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    It was 12 months ago when we had a legendary, how'd you forget?

    Back on topic, I think I figured out why we've been getting Vitality buffs: It's actually a buff to people that want to use two 2.6-speed weapons. In theory, the difference between the offhand types would show 2.6-speed offhands benefitting a lot more from a passive AP buff than 1.8 daggers.
    I wonder what the math will look like between the two now...
    Two slow weapons is already slightly better under optimal conditions. Still, while a buff to AP might buff killing spree somewhat, it won't buff it by enough to change anything in the forseeable future, because it's offset by the fact that daggers will still favor deadly poison and the AP buff will help with that too (by increasing both the DoT and the DP-I damage). Slow weapon killing spree damage scales approximately 41% better than a dagger in offhand for killing spree. As it so happens, a dagger swings about 45% faster and that's 45% more DP-I procs during killing spree when using a dagger. Once you remove about 30% of the AP scaling of killing spree due to armor, that comes out to about 0.12 AP coefficient and the AP coefficient of DP-I happens to be .109, increased to .114 by master poisoner. The damage increase due to AP between slow and fast really isn't much different.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-02-24 at 03:56 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Two slow weapons is already slightly better under optimal conditions. Still, while a buff to AP might buff killing spree somewhat, it won't buff it by enough to change anything in the forseeable future, because it's offset by the fact that daggers will still favor deadly poison and the AP buff will help with that too (by increasing both the DoT and the DP-I damage). Slow weapon killing spree damage scales approximately 41% better than a dagger in offhand for killing spree. As it so happens, a dagger swings about 45% faster and that's 45% more DP-I procs during killing spree when using a dagger. Once you remove about 30% of the AP scaling of killing spree due to armor, that comes out to about 0.12 AP coefficient and the AP coefficient of DP-I happens to be .109, increased to .114 by master poisoner. The damage increase due to AP between slow and fast really isn't much different.
    Well that's disappointing.
    At least there aren't going to be that many fights next tier that force you off of the main target like this tier, right? /sarcasm
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    My rogue

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    It was 12 months ago when we had a legendary, how'd you forget?
    oh right. I probably forgot because it was just one patch with 8 bosses. and most rogues got the daggers shortly before they cleared the content.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    oh right. I probably forgot because it was just one patch with 8 bosses. and most rogues got the daggers shortly before they cleared the content.
    The first set of daggers was obtained on January 13th, with alot more sets being obtained in the following weeks. By January 13th all of 48 guilds had actually cleared heroic dragon soul so I would have thought a fair few rogues actually got to use them for progression for quite a while. Guess if you're not in the top 50 you don't count?

    On top of that, most rogues worth their salt had a competitive set of daggers from week 1. The 497 versions were good, the 406 set even better obviously. This helped a lot of rogues keep their raid spot surely.

  19. #59
    Deleted
    Hello, do You guys think that sub rogue has any chances to compete with other rogue specs in pve during 5.2 content? I know that it only got buff to the SV passive, but maybe amount of haste on gear or agility together with 30% agi passive will make sub rogues 'viable' option for pve ?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by hrhrhr View Post
    Hello, do You guys think that sub rogue has any chances to compete with other rogue specs in pve during 5.2 content? I know that it only got buff to the SV passive, but maybe amount of haste on gear or agility together with 30% agi passive will make sub rogues 'viable' option for pve ?
    Maybe towards the end of the tier with heroic gear, depends on how the fights work though. With the additional combat and assassination buffs and the fact that both were already ahead on live, I doubt sub does more at 522 even under optimal conditions. But really, sub has to either be 100% viable on every fight or noticeably higher on the optimal ones or I wouldn't really call it viable. I mean having to reoptimize all your stuff for a bunch of fights where sub is weak when you could just optimize for another spec that does the same dps and isn't gimped if you can't backstab doesn't qualify as "viable" imo.

    Though this would be an awesome time for a 20% or so buff to base rupture damage
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-02-24 at 07:46 PM.

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