Thread: 5.2 tuning pass

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  1. #121
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    Sorry if question is out of place but here goes.
    The general opinion seems to be that assassination will continue to be the top spec for rogues in ToT, atleast in the start.
    Is there any specific point at which you'd be wanting to swap to Combat (where it outscales/outperforms assassination in singletarget damage), I was thinking since I see a lot of talk about T15 4P to be a major boost in Combat dps so maybe that'd be the point to swap specs or something.
    But I'm not a numbercruncher so hence I wanted to ask here since it seems like there's a few people here who is.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Sorry if question is out of place but here goes.
    The general opinion seems to be that assassination will continue to be the top spec for rogues in ToT, atleast in the start.
    Is there any specific point at which you'd be wanting to swap to Combat (where it outscales/outperforms assassination in singletarget damage), I was thinking since I see a lot of talk about T15 4P to be a major boost in Combat dps so maybe that'd be the point to swap specs or something.
    But I'm not a numbercruncher so hence I wanted to ask here since it seems like there's a few people here who is.

    Thanks in advance.
    You've pretty much heard right. If you have the 4 piece and good weapons for combat, it would probably be the point to switch, or if it's a multi-target cleave fight (2 or 3-5 enemies).

  3. #123
    Yes, the 4 piece set bonus is so powerful for combat that it hurts. It's not like you can pass over and play a spec which is viable even if only theoretically a little under; the gain in dps is so huge that makes the other two specs "useless" (in the terms they're not worth to use since you have a greatly better one).

    We need to do more parses on live and to see how actual mechanics will favor one spec or another, but from what i've seen, there should be no issues from this pov apart horridon (with lots of adds and great BF usage) and tortos (which being ultraxion-like, won't let you use backstab).

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yes, the 4 piece set bonus is so powerful for combat that it hurts. It's not like you can pass over and play a spec which is viable even if only theoretically a little under; the gain in dps is so huge that makes the other two specs "useless" (in the terms they're not worth to use since you have a greatly better one).
    How so? Assassinations abilities cost more energy and hit harder so the 4 piece would benefit assassination more. Plus combat combines adrenaline rush and shadow blades so a reduction in energy cost during AR would be bad which means you have to separate AR and SB which is a loss. So you have to lose DPS to gain it, reducing the benefit for combat. I'm not deep in the numbers but it seems like combat benefits more from 2 piece than 4 and assassination benefits more from 4 than 2.
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  5. #125
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    I think it's more the GCD reduction being insane.
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    which being ultraxion-like, won't let you use backstab
    Again a subtlety rogue will have to use his offspec for this encounter, reminds me of fire mages having to go frost for ragnaros back in vanilla...

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by theturn View Post
    How so?
    1 page back, with my explanation under it for people who missed what caused the rift: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20396053

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I think it's more the GCD reduction being insane.
    In short ^

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    1 page back, with my explanation under it for people who missed what caused the rift: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20396053



    In short ^
    Is that the GCD reduction connected to the glyph or a new one connected with the set. I thought I read they added a new GCD reduction on the gear but it was late and it made my brain hurt so I don't remember the details.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 08:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Here are my findings, all with simc's default T15H BiS profile:
    T15H 4-set disabled
    A: 178,673; C: 176,055; S: 182,192
    T15H 4-set enabled
    A: 186,361; C: 203,166; S: 186,205
    T15H 4-set enabled with the 0.7sec GCD removed (I modified the source and rebuilt it)
    A: 182,626; C: 176,682 (AR/SB coupled) or 179,681 (AR/SB decoupled); S: 183,885

    With combat it's disproportionately large if you reduce the GCD, disproportionately small if you don't.
    With the GCD removed its a 3626 gain, compared to Assassination 3953, Sub 1693

    Of those sub is out of place but the GCD helps bump it back to 4013 which is in line with the other specs. Seems like the GCD change was more for sub than combat and combat just benefits even more, possibly unintended??

    Maybe I'm missing something but thats how I translate those numbers.
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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by theturn View Post
    Is that the GCD reduction connected to the glyph or a new one connected with the set. I thought I read they added a new GCD reduction on the gear but it was late and it made my brain hurt so I don't remember the details.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 08:10 PM ----------



    With the GCD removed its a 3626 gain, compared to Assassination 3953, Sub 1693

    Of those sub is out of place but the GCD helps bump it back to 4013 which is in line with the other specs. Seems like the GCD change was more for sub than combat and combat just benefits even more, possibly unintended??

    Maybe I'm missing something but thats how I translate those numbers.
    Combat only gains from the 4-set (without the GCD reduction) by decoupling AR/SB, losing the synergy between them. If you retain using AR/SB at the same time you will not gain anything from the 4-set, if simc's modeling is to be believed. This is why blizz added the GCD reduction to the 4-set (down to 0.7sec, so combat's GCD during SB if both AR and SB are used is 0.5sec--once SB fades the remaining 3 sec of AR will be at the normal 0.8sec with glyph). Sub gains 3k dps from the shorter GCD. Assassination gains 4k dps from the shorter GCD. Combat gains 27k dps from the shorter GCD.

    Glyphs were intended to be situational/optional--not mandatory. This set bonus is just adding on to an existing resource management gameplay problem for combat--because of adrenaline rush. I'd like to have three glyph slots to use, not two.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-03-04 at 10:21 PM.

  10. #130
    Yeah, I'd like to have that glyph slot back too, especially since the smoke bomb glyph will likely be really solid now.

  11. #131
    Wow, anyone see the changes to the RPPM system? This is a pretty huge nerf to rogues. Way lower uptime on Dancing Steel as well as all the new trinkets and the legendary metagem. Not sure what they were thinking here.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Wow, anyone see the changes to the RPPM system? This is a pretty huge nerf to rogues. Way lower uptime on Dancing Steel as well as all the new trinkets and the legendary metagem. Not sure what they were thinking here.
    I'm not even sure what the formula looks like now.
    Regardless, I'd hope it DOESN'T go live unless it's been on the PTR all along anyways.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    I'm not even sure what the formula looks like now.
    Regardless, I'd hope it DOESN'T go live unless it's been on the PTR all along anyways.
    Basically Dancing Steel, the legendary meta, and trinkets will have a ~35% lower proc rate than currently for Assassination and Combat. Sub is hit even harder.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Wow, anyone see the changes to the RPPM system? This is a pretty huge nerf to rogues. Way lower uptime on Dancing Steel as well as all the new trinkets and the legendary metagem. Not sure what they were thinking here.
    Well, according to my math, the nerf to real PPM likely puts Heroic Bottle of Infinite Stars as one of the BiS trinkets, and most likely the new VP trinket as the other BiS trinket. At least for Assassination. Higher haste levels in Combat and Subtlety might change it, but in my current gear as Assassination, Soul Charm and Bad Juju come out at around 1350 average agility vs. Bottle's 1650 average agility.

    For those who don't know what change he's talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    We changed RealPPM to use your true melee haste or spell haste (whichever is higher) to scale the proc rate instead of attack speed or casting speed. The difference is that things that buff your attack speed (such as the raid buff or Slice and Dice) do not increase the frequency of RPPM procs. True haste boosts, such as Bloodlust or haste rating on gear will improve proc rate. We felt this change was necessary to balance proc rates among different specs.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=109#2169

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    I'm not even sure what the formula looks like now.
    Regardless, I'd hope it DOESN'T go live unless it's been on the PTR all along anyways.
    The formula for uptime on Real PPM uptime is is 1-e^-(RPPM*(1+Haste)*Duration/60)

    All percentages in decimal form, of course.

  15. #135
    The stupid thing about that rppm change is that more or less the entire raid will end up using spell haste for the realppm haste (with few exceptions such as anyone under the effct of an unholy dk's unholy frenzy). This will more or less mean that your raid will HAVE to have the spell haste raid buff to maximize its effectiveness (hope you have a boomkin, ele shaman, or shadow priest).

  16. #136
    So what... have we been nerfed with the loss of Dancing Steel/Trinkets procs now?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by orderofmaken View Post
    So what... have we been nerfed with the loss of Dancing Steel/Trinkets procs now?
    Pretty much. We lose about 30%+ uptime on most everything that uses real PPM, which would be Dancing Steel, ToT trinkets and the legendary meta.

  18. #138
    That doesn't just affects rogues though. That affects ALL physical dps (by virtue of the 10% attack speed raid buff, that's to say nothing of slice and dice, flurry, icy talons, unholy presence, way of the monk, steady focus, etc).

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    That doesn't just affects rogues though. That affects ALL physical dps (by virtue of the 10% attack speed raid buff, that's to say nothing of slice and dice, flurry, icy talons, unholy presence, way of the monk, steady focus, etc).
    Pretty much. I anticipate Monks, Rogues and DKs are the ones being hit the hardest though because of the size and uptime of their haste buffs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 06:55 PM ----------

    A few new numbers from Ghostcrawler:

    Capacitive
    1.136 Combat
    1.789 Assassination
    1.114 Subtlety
    - Assassin's Resolve now increases damage by 30%, up from 20%.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=114#2278

    So Assassination is getting a bit of a buff to attempt to catch it up to Combat. I don't know what they're going to do about Sub though, since I think it's still lagging behind with the 4 piece.
    Last edited by whathump; 2013-03-05 at 02:56 AM. Reason: forgot link

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Combat only gains from the 4-set (without the GCD reduction) by decoupling AR/SB, losing the synergy between them. If you retain using AR/SB at the same time you will not gain anything from the 4-set, if simc's modeling is to be believed. This is why blizz added the GCD reduction to the 4-set (down to 0.7sec, so combat's GCD during SB if both AR and SB are used is 0.5sec--once SB fades the remaining 3 sec of AR will be at the normal 0.8sec with glyph). Sub gains 3k dps from the shorter GCD. Assassination gains 4k dps from the shorter GCD. Combat gains 27k dps from the shorter GCD.

    Glyphs were intended to be situational/optional--not mandatory. This set bonus is just adding on to an existing resource management gameplay problem for combat--because of adrenaline rush. I'd like to have three glyph slots to use, not two.
    I don't have a problem with decoupling them, then again I don't really play combat so that might be why. One of the problems I have with combat is the downtime between cds. So forcing you to use shadow blades separate from AR is ok by me.

    You seem to have a problem with AR which is causing you to look for a solution that does something to AR while skirting past the real problem which is the GCD which again seems to be intentionally directed at sub but is buffing combat far more than it should. Is Blizzard aware of this? But anyway AR is fine, frankly one of the best cds in game. Get rid of the GCD and break up the two cds and the problem is solved.
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