Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Seal Of Truth Vs Seal of Insight "As Protection Paladin"

    To start off I am making this thread to answer one simple question.

    What seal is better Truth or Insight.

    Now I have been playing a paladin since WOTLK and mostly prot for MOP but I have seen many of Posts of people saying Insight is more useful due to its heal and that truth dose little damage.

    Now I do know that truth only dose like 3-8% of a prot pallys damage.

    Some say the threat from healing with Insight is more then the Damage-threat from truth.

    So what do you think is better and why.

    I will say I do notice a dps difference when soloing as prot without truth its a 1-3k lost in dps. but there is a few things you do different soloing then what you do in LFR/Normal/Heroic Raiding.

    Also I have used both "will admit in LFR I don't normal/heroic raid anymore" and SoI dose help keep me up on boss's with add's or trash pulls so I personally figure the damage lost is worth it.

    So let the debit begin.

    "I will ask for people to please not troll or bash others for there opinion and try to keep this as a mature as you can"
    "Providing links to back up your claim will help a lot as well"
    My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/jtbrig7390
    PSN: Jtbrig7390
    Nintendo ID: Jtbrig7390
    XBL: Jtbrig7390 "Inactive at this time"
    My Twitch Streaming Games All The Time: http://www.twitch.tv/jtbrig7390

  2. #2
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Iglooland, eh?
    Posts
    2,045
    There is no debate; insight is the tanking seal.

    As a tank, I'd rather take the increased survivability and non-drainable mana pool over 1 to 3k of DPS any day. And so would any tank worth its salt.

    There's a reason why Truth was nerfed for prot.
    It's time to level up and quit your newbie ways
    You need to go outside and get some new V-rays
    A fresh breath of air will help you talk again
    Inhale, exhale, feel the Oxygen
    - Woodman

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by marthsk View Post
    There is no debate; insight is the tanking seal.

    As a tank, I'd rather take the increased survivability and non-drainable mana pool over 1 to 3k of DPS any day. And so would any tank worth its salt.

    There's a reason why Truth was nerfed for prot.
    I'm just use to truth and didn't know there was a nerf only been back like 3 weeks.

    But I have seen posts of people saying that even with the nerf it was worth still using.
    My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/jtbrig7390
    PSN: Jtbrig7390
    Nintendo ID: Jtbrig7390
    XBL: Jtbrig7390 "Inactive at this time"
    My Twitch Streaming Games All The Time: http://www.twitch.tv/jtbrig7390

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    3,594
    It isn't worth using SoT, gaining 1k-3k dps but losing 20k+ hps is rather silly. You're better off using SoI and having a healer attack the boss or regain mana with the lower healing they need to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    It isn't worth using SoT, gaining 1k-3k dps but losing 20k+ hps is rather silly. You're better off using SoI and having a healer attack the boss or regain mana with the lower healing they need to do.
    I have notice SoI's heal and I use it when soloing because it helps a lot and the dps lose doing that is well worth it.

    just wasn't 100% sure if it was different in LFR/Normal/Heroic.
    My Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/jtbrig7390
    PSN: Jtbrig7390
    Nintendo ID: Jtbrig7390
    XBL: Jtbrig7390 "Inactive at this time"
    My Twitch Streaming Games All The Time: http://www.twitch.tv/jtbrig7390

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,951
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    I have notice SoI's heal and I use it when soloing because it helps a lot and the dps lose doing that is well worth it.

    just wasn't 100% sure if it was different in LFR/Normal/Heroic.
    It's actually much better in LFR/Normal/Heroic. The scaling on the heal is not bad at all, and Battle Healer is insane.

  7. #7
    there are no reason at all to use SoT anymore the damage is just so low and the healing from SoI is insane.
    also the healing generates much more threat.

    a good example for how good SoI is i managed to solo 20% of stone guard health and stayed alive for over 3 minutes alone.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Antrim, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,768
    Seal of Insight + Battle Healer glyph.

    If it's the standard for challenge modes, it's the standard for everything else; and the passive self/party heals are very useful.
    The first thing I remember about the world — and I pray that it may be the last — is that I was a stranger in it.” - Malcolm Muggeridge, Apologia pro vita sua (1968)

  9. #9
    Seal of Insight is the cookie cutter. SoT got some unique niche uses. When enrages are very tight and you are wiping on 0.5% on a boss, that extra 2k dps can make it or break it. Especially on those fights where the healing added from SoI is negliable at best.

    Fights that comes into mind this tier has been Gara'Jal HC, SK HC, Elegon HC, Blade Lord HC, Tsulong HC.

    It also has purpose to get good rankings on world of logs, rankings YOLO!

    Though as a general rule of thumb. If you do not understand WHY and WHEN you should/can use SoT. Then you probably shouldn't.
    SoI is the safe bet, SoT is the oddball.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #10
    I don't know why you would ever use anything but insight + battle healer except for some extreme cheesing on farms (most likely better to just stand in fire and use SoI anyway).

    On progession its 100 times better to cut a healer completely or do 0.5 healer setup if you need extra dps. Not to mention the healing you do allows your healers to pump out some damage if you are really wiping on 0.00001%.
    Of all the heroic bosses this tier I have a very hard time seeing where SoI would not be vastly superior if you consider all factors mentioned above.
    Last edited by muglia; 2013-02-20 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by muglia View Post
    I don't know why you would ever use anything but insight + battle healer except for some extreme cheesing on farms (most likely better to just stand in fire and use SoI anyway).

    On progession its 100 times better to cut a healer completely or do 0.5 healer setup if you need extra dps. Not to mention the healing you do allows your healers to pump out some damage if you are really wiping on 0.00001%.
    Of all the heroic bosses this tier I have a very hard time seeing where SoI would not be vastly superior if you consider all factors mentioned above.
    What you are forgetting are fights that bottleneck the healers. Some fights allows you to basically use 0.5 healers for the more part of the fights, however some phase of the fights gets intense and requires 2-3 healers. So you still need to bring 2-3 healers even if most of the fight can be single healed, since well, you would die on the heavier phases otherwise (duh).

    Also, some fights are very bursty in nature. SoI and especially battle healer is the most effective when people are taking constant damage. Some fights is basically no damage until suddenly someone gets oneshotted.

    A fight thats come into mind here is Spirit Kings HC which fits both of the above mentioned criterias.

    First guy, does absolutely no damage at all except if someone gets oneshotted in an annihilate or flanking orders.
    Second guy, same deal, shit all damage, except if someone soaks a volley.
    Third guy got some raid damage, though if adds are handled properly, and interrupts are smooth, raid damage is low.
    Meng is where the damage is. This is where both the raid damage and tank damage skyrockets. This is the only of the bosses where SoI makes sense at all.

    Same goes for a fight like Blade Lord. Literally hits the tanks for piss all until unbalancing strikes. Hits raid for nothing until the cleave. SoI makes 0 sense here either.


    I see this constantly when people are reasoning about wow boss fights. They always presume that boss damage is static throughout an entire fight. This is often never the case. It is not always as simple as "If you can kill the boss without using SoI you are better swapping down 0.5 healers". A lot of the time both you and the healers can ditch out more DPS.

    This is one of the reasons that I think that battle healer is overrated on sooooo many fights. People forget to ask themselves how effective is it actually?

    We have had fights where our disc priest solo smite heals for over a minute while our druid healer dpses.
    That doesn't mean that later on in the fight both of them needs to heal their asses off while getting raid cooldowns to help them.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-20 at 11:13 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #12
    I don't know man... I don't know when you have killed bosses but there's a big difference between doing bosses with intented ilvl and overgearing even a little.

    I get your point about required hp/s during certain phases, but I still think the raid will be better off with you healing your self with SoI and having healers dps instead of doing the reverse due to spell choices at various amounts of tank health. Also any healer mana spent on dps'ing to match the damage output of SoT should always less than the mana spent to cover for no SoI.
    Additionally I believe only focusing on varying required hp/s during an encounter is the wrong way of doing it with mop healing and it's mana pools + healer regen. It is rarely delivering the required hp/s but most often healers' total mana supply during an encounter that is the limiting factor which is the main reason SoI+BH is so good to use even in supposedly low damage periods. If hp/s is a problem you have a problem with personal and raid cooldown usage or mistakes/poor play.

    No one is denying SoT is in theory good to use if no one is taking damage and you have spare gcds or you just want to pad meters, but during first kills with an appropriate ilvl it is in practice basicly never a good idea to use SoT.

  13. #13
    To me it is not even a debate that SoT got legit uses in raiding. That said, SoI is still the best seal for most fights, I have used SoI on almost every progression fight, only few exceptions, though denying that SoT also got its uses is just being thick and close minded. Though this seems to be a common thing with paladin tanking. Many people presume something is always better and they go for it without question on every fight. Some things the people consider to be cookie cutter can even be worse in almost every raiding situation (read as: PoJ, HA)

    I would love to hear a good argument why to use SoI on like, bladelord heroic.

    Other fights is highly dependant on your group set up and tactics. Blade lord is the fight that stands out the most in SoT vs SoI. Other fights that SoT MAY be better depending on your group setup is as I mentioned stuff like Gara'Jal, SK, Elegon. Some other fights aswell though those are more situational.

    In most fights, than yes, the standard "If healing is easy better to let healers dps" apply. Though that is by far not true for every fight. Also, there is of course always the individual group. What works best for someone may work worse for others. Maybe your healers are not that skilled and do not know how to properly use damage abilities while healing.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    3,242
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What you are forgetting are fights that bottleneck the healers. Some fights allows you to basically use 0.5 healers for the more part of the fights, however some phase of the fights gets intense and requires 2-3 healers. So you still need to bring 2-3 healers even if most of the fight can be single healed, since well, you would die on the heavier phases otherwise (duh).

    Also, some fights are very bursty in nature. SoI and especially battle healer is the most effective when people are taking constant damage. Some fights is basically no damage until suddenly someone gets oneshotted.

    A fight thats come into mind here is Spirit Kings HC which fits both of the above mentioned criterias.

    First guy, does absolutely no damage at all except if someone gets oneshotted in an annihilate or flanking orders.
    Second guy, same deal, shit all damage, except if someone soaks a volley.
    Third guy got some raid damage, though if adds are handled properly, and interrupts are smooth, raid damage is low.
    Meng is where the damage is. This is where both the raid damage and tank damage skyrockets. This is the only of the bosses where SoI makes sense at all.

    Same goes for a fight like Blade Lord. Literally hits the tanks for piss all until unbalancing strikes. Hits raid for nothing until the cleave. SoI makes 0 sense here either.


    I see this constantly when people are reasoning about wow boss fights. They always presume that boss damage is static throughout an entire fight. This is often never the case. It is not always as simple as "If you can kill the boss without using SoI you are better swapping down 0.5 healers". A lot of the time both you and the healers can ditch out more DPS.

    This is one of the reasons that I think that battle healer is overrated on sooooo many fights. People forget to ask themselves how effective is it actually?

    We have had fights where our disc priest solo smite heals for over a minute while our druid healer dpses.
    That doesn't mean that later on in the fight both of them needs to heal their asses off while getting raid cooldowns to help them.
    Eh? First guy on spirit kings heroic is the guy that does the most damage by far. The only time you could be taking more damage than when he is up (excluding stuff that kills you outright) is if your dps don't stop dpsing with the damage reflect buff active at the end. Using SoI lets you more easily get away with bringing just 1 healer for the entire fight, because they can spam during healing intensive phases, then relax, low-intensity heal, and regen mana more easily during the less intensive ones.

    SoI also makes perfect sense for blade lord. It'll let you deal with the auto-attack damage you take almost by itself, and help keep the wind step target alive through battle healer, which just makes keeping that guy alive that much easier. SoI is still extremely good (at least relative to SoT) during phases where you don't need a lot of healing, because it means your healers will have more mana to spare for inefficient, high throughput, heals when more intense healing is needed.

    Fights where SoI isn't the best choice for meaningful parts of the fight are extremely rare, and even the ones where this is the case it's almost always the case because the encounter has been designed very poorly in order to force you to bring way more healers than you need (N sha of fear, ambershaper, gara'jal, elegon and H vizier are all fights that I've done where we bring more healers than needed because of stupid fight mechanics), but the reason it might make sense to use SoT there is because of the stupid fight design forcing you to bring too many healers, not because SoT is an intelligent way of trading healing for damage.

  15. #15
    First guy on SK does the most damage by far...

    Oh, how little knowledge some people have that try to make a point... Please, before you call someone out wrong, know what you are talking about and have something to back it up with,

    Okay, so I just went to WoL and took a log from a good guild. Lets see the damage taken on SK.

    That is the overall damage taken by the entire raid.



    The first "bump" on the first boss, is the main tank soaking annihilate to get more vengeance.

    First 2 small bumps = first boss

    Third bump = second boss

    Fourth bump = third boss

    Fifth bump = fourth boss

    Ye for sure, first boss does most damage.

    The first boss damage is so insanely low it is hillarious.
    We have started using a strategy where everybody spread out on the first boss and that the tank (me) just solo tank the boss the entire fight. We never stack up on the first boss. Fun numbers of vengeance + a lot easier for transition. Imo that is the easiest way to do SK and if I knew what we know now when we started on SK we would probably have done that back then aswell.

    Also having 1 tank solo soaking the entire first boss allows people to dodge the flanking orders effectively. Not to mention the dps on that tank haha.

    Still don't see how it makes sense on blade-lord. It requires 0 maintence from the healers to outheal bladelords tank damage. A druids HoTs automatically maintain the tank, so really having SoI will just cause overhealing for 0 benefit. Aren't you using BoP on the wind steps? Seems strange you even mention SoI and battle healer in this case. Are your group not spreading out properly? Maybe you have to look into your raiders positioning? Make sure you do not stack up as the wind step can hit multiple players.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-20 at 03:19 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #16
    I always say Soi beats SoT, the dmg is so little, and SoI beats it not just because of the heal.. Even if it isn't needed.

    Just went to solo Beth using SoI i didn't have to worry about my health nearly as much as i did with SoT, i had to self heal a lot more using SoT which casued down time on my dps... Was a DPS loss, not to mention the damage was Tiny..

    If you think about it, SoI does more damage than SoT even in solo experiences, because you can just absolutly nuke the boss most of the time, you never go oom which is absolute god for Haste builds...

    I used SoT on Beth till the first smoldering devestation then switched as i was struggling with health/ doing so much worse dps...
    I looked at skada after and in total SoT did 130k damage, Are people serious? From that 0->1 Smoldering i had downtime on quite a few abilties due to self healing as SoI wasn't there healing me. (where as in SoI i would of not had nearly as much issue with health, and have not wasted my holy power/globals on self healing, i gaurentee i'll do more than 130k in SoI lol)

    Now in a raid environment (havent tested) but in a 10 man raid you might not have to worry about your health but people report on going oom using SoT, especially during Lust/Hero, if so this pretty much says it all, You can use SoT for the "increase in dps of 2-3%" but it'll gimp you off some abilties later in the fight, Really? Just use SoI with a haste build, with lust, never go oom and be done with it. Sure you will not get the ticks from the garbage censure but you'll never go oom and rarely have a free gcd.

  17. #17
    Ye, SoI is almost always better for soloing. Almost the only valid use for SoT for soloing is if the boss

    1. Dies before you go oom
    2. You do not need to heal before the boss dies.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #18
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sanborn, MN
    Posts
    1,703
    I am the OT in our group, which doesn't make sense as i out heal/dps/tank the MT warrior, but he has been the tank for our guild forever so I get to be second in line. Anyway back ot, I use SOI all the time as the 20K HPS is always better than the 2-3k dps especially as I have less vengeance and thus deal less damage either way, I have hit as high as 45k HPS on fights before, I only use SOT for farm bosses and even then unless there are adds it is quite rare. No matter what someone is always taking damage and if I save a healer 1k mana its a bonus to the minuscule DPS increase I would have.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by muglia View Post
    I don't know why you would ever use anything but insight + battle healer except for some extreme cheesing on farms (most likely better to just stand in fire and use SoI anyway).
    So tell me wich glyph's you use because surely there are more intersting things then battle healer.
    imo healin is for healers its a nice boost on some fights dont get me wrong but i do believe that there are more intersting glyps then battle healer
    To give examples Divine protection, alabaster shield, focused shield, double jeopardy if you are good at managing it on multi target fights

  20. #20
    Double Jeopardy makes my head spin round and round and round when using it on double target fights.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •