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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    Totally does.
    Yeah, it roughly adds 25% more threat (my bad on my previous post, I missed two words on my statement about threat) to us but it doesn't double our damage, like you said in a previous post, since it does 50% of our damage and certain abilities does even less damage (namely HS).

    I still think it's better to save it when you really need as a defensive CD but you can safely use it if you know you'll need it after the CD would be over.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Because it's how a DK works? We build up RP and we spend it. It's like this since WotLK.
    just because it's been like this since wotlk doesn't make it a good model.
    the large costs on our cds are really unnecessary.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Yeah, it roughly adds 25% more threat (my bad on my previous post, I missed two words on my statement about threat) to us but it doesn't double our damage, like you said in a previous post, since it does 50% of our damage and certain abilities does even less damage (namely HS).
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c...iqjaq%22%29%29

    Hold the abilities up to each other. Stuff like Icy Touch, Blood Boil, and disease damage are the same as mine. It applies its own variance so there will be a 1-2% delta, but meh.
    Strikes like DS and PS (Outbreak was on cooldown for this) are toned down, but still do more than half the damage mine do.

    The reason you're probably getting crap HS out of it is
    1) It doesn't use our weapon, it uses its own. Not sure how its weapon damage is calculated tbh, I think it's just a static [really low number] that scales with AP same as ours. It basically dps's like you would if you threw a Wrath weapon on.
    2) Because it doesn't get the 30% buff from our diseases, it needs its own set to get that damage buff. Summon DRW (wait a second for it to pick its nose), Outbreak, and then you can HS. Unless you're at relatively high vengeance, in which case BB is better since it scales harder with vengeance and doesn't downscale with the Dancer's **** weapon damage.

    I still think it's better to save it when you really need as a defensive CD but you can safely use it if you know you'll need it after the CD would be over.
    Yeah sure. I'm not arguing how to use it. I go for it like a dps cooldown a lot of the time since my guild does nothing but farming it feels like. QQ

  4. #24
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    I usually find myself burning through RP using Rune Strike so that my idiot bear co-tank doesn't pull aggro off me, especially during tank swaps.

    I like to save my DRW for mitigation, not damage. Not having to worry about RP cost would be a nice QoL change.

    Every thread, it's the same thing. Someone brings up an idea for a nice change and then some asshole follows it with a "you're bad".

    True, not every idea in this forum is good, but come on.

  5. #25
    I think having no RP cost for our defensive CDs isn't asking much. Currently no other tank has a resource cost on their mid-long CDs so why does ours? Also from the sound of it DRW hasn't been touched since wrath if the posts about its damage are correct.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    just because it's been like this since wotlk doesn't make it a good model.
    the large costs on our cds are really unnecessary.
    Just because an ability it's the same since WotLK it doesn't mean it's outdated or badly designed (and, fyi, it has been changed, firstly it was a dps CD because blood was a dps spec).
    I don't really think it has a large cost, 60 rp are nothing for a CD like that. You are just wasting 0.4 of a DS every time you use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    I think having no RP cost for our defensive CDs isn't asking much. Currently no other tank has a resource cost on their mid-long CDs so why does ours? Also from the sound of it DRW hasn't been touched since wrath if the posts about its damage are correct.
    We work differently than other classes but it doesn't mean we are bad and they are good. They have free CD? We don't. Warriors can't reach 50k hps on windlord, for example, so they should whine because they don't self heal themselves like us? I think some differences from class to class is more than welcome, otherwise just make 1 class for each role and gg.
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  7. #27
    I'd really like to be able to use DRW on pull; extra starter threat, and, in the case of trash, extra avoidance when it matters most: When most mobs are hitting me in the nose.
    The longer you wait, on pull, with using DRW, the less valuable it becomes (when it concerns trash/adds, at least). The fact that you can only use it when you've got 60RP (over half of your maximum amount) to spare is really crippling for the ability.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    60 RP = HoW-DnD-DS-DS -> 4 GCD = 4 seconds.

    You are overestimating the problem guys, really.

    It's not like I'm going to hate Blizzard if they remove the RP cost, don't get me wrong, but I really don't see any problem in how DRW works at the moment.
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  9. #29
    Outdated because our class is dead in Blizzard's eyes </3

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    60 RP = HoW-DnD-DS-DS -> 4 GCD = 4 seconds.
    You sure about that?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Just because an ability it's the same since WotLK it doesn't mean it's outdated or badly designed (and, fyi, it has been changed, firstly it was a dps CD because blood was a dps spec).
    I was using your own words.
    Also I mentioned several skills we have which have resource costs that shouldn't. IBF for frost/unholy for example.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    60 RP = HoW-DnD-DS-DS -> 4 GCD = 4 seconds.

    You are overestimating the problem guys, really.

    It's not like I'm going to hate Blizzard if they remove the RP cost, don't get me wrong, but I really don't see any problem in how DRW works at the moment.
    Just because getting 60 RP can be done reasonably fast, doesn't mean its practical. Using DRW is a waste of 2 BT charges ( 80% of a death strike) a possible 2 RE procs ( a full death strike) and a fair amount of damage.

    To my knowledge, no other tank spec has a cooldown that directly competes with their active mitigation that doesn't in some way "refund" the cost.

    DRW also functions as a dps cooldown and again, no tank spec has a dps cooldown that costs a resource as precious as our Runes/RP.

    I have to ask.... why?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Just because getting 60 RP can be done reasonably fast, doesn't mean its practical. Using DRW is a waste of 2 BT charges ( 80% of a death strike) a possible 2 RE procs ( a full death strike) and a fair amount of damage.
    80% of a Death Rune != 80% of a Death Strike
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  14. #34
    whoops typo, still equates to a resource loss.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    whoops typo, still equates to a resource loss.
    not a significant loss though compared to 20% parry for 12 sec :O
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  16. #36
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    There's nothing outdated about a signature ability costing high resources. Unholy Gargoyle at 60 Runic Power was also fine. Using abilities that require higher amounts of resources make the class feel connected. When you remove resource costs from abilities like Summon Gargoyle or Rune Weapon, they just become stacked into macro'd abilities that are just hit as soon as if its off cool down. The Death Knight class was always unique in the fact that powerful abilities cost runic power which is built by using abilities that cost runes.

    Removing Runic Power or Rune costs from powerful abilities is a slippery slope towards the Warrior resource system where you can use abilities like Shield Wall, Recklessness and Avatar without a resource cost.

  17. #37
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragethorn View Post
    You sure about that?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    I was using your own words.
    Also I mentioned several skills we have which have resource costs that shouldn't. IBF for frost/unholy for example.
    I'm fine with all our ability and their cost, to be honest. I don't get why we should have all our CD free, only because warrior or X class have it, we should have it aswell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    I have to ask.... why?
    Because we work differently than other tanks? If you have knowledge of every single tank class you should admit that we are unique, no other tank class has 2 different resources to manage: IIRC, and I could be wrong because I don't know every single tanking class so deeply, warriors and druids have rage (they build rage from "nothing"), paladins have HP (they build HP from abilities that cost mana, but if I'm not wrong they have "infinite" mana) and monks have chi (they build chi from energy) and their respective active mitigation comes from rage-HP-chi. They have free CDs. Our active mitigation comes from runes, spending runes generates RP, we use RP to generate runes but also to blow some CD. We have RP cost on our CDs.

    Blizz should remove runes, in the first place, then should add a CD to our abilities and then should make our CD free.
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  18. #38
    Bloodsail Admiral Narshe's Avatar
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    60 rp cost seems insignificant when I can pop DRW and Army to reduce my damage taken by 70% for 6 seconds.

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  19. #39
    I wouldn't complain about the cost being removed, but I assume it's there because it's both an offensive and a defensive CD that you can use every minute and a half. Sure, on progression raids you'll want to use it for survivability, but for farm stuff, it actually adds a fair chunk of damage as well. While it'd be lower in tank gear, I know questing as blood(and running event bosses, old world raids, etc where tank gear isn't needed) DRW can pull 15-20k+ dps as well as providing the extra parry. A warrior's shield wall can reduce his damage taken, but it doesn't give a extra 15k+ dps while he's using it, either.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Because we work differently than other tanks? If you have knowledge of every single tank class you should admit that we are unique, no other tank class has 2 different resources to manage.
    Monks do.

    We dont work differntly than other tanks as far as the actual tanking philospohy goes. Runes fill the role of our spend rage/HolyPower/chi to use surviability skills. DRW might be outdated but not because it costs RP but because rune power is used to boost our rune recharge rate with the addition of cata and the new mechanics in mop. It needs to actualy give us something in the form of rune regen when we use it so it does not fall out of the whole active mitigation idea.
    The equivalent would be to have monks rely on a survavability skill that uses energy instead of Chi and does not grant them any actual Chi after they have used it. The only skill that comes to mind is expel harm that heals the monk does damage but even though it costs energy to deal damage and surive it still awards Chi for its use allowing the monk to keep his survabilty resources(Chi) going. While runes seperate us from other tanks as far as how our active survivablity works they should not be a exuse to hold on to dated mechanics. Of course its blizzard and I feel like this will never get changed. If they dont see it as a massive problem they wont spend time on its adjustment.
    TL;DR When we spend RP we need to use it in the direction of refreshing runes in addition to its secondary benefits.
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