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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Both Toth or Fervor has their good and bad. For example, if both hunter were the same geared, don't tell me that 100% of the time you will beat the other's dps (if one is using Toth vs Fervor).

    Toth allows you to cast lesser Cobra and conserve focus if you are good at managing, while Fervor gives you the flexibility to have that boost of focus when you need the most for "thirst focus CD", but that doesn't mean one is definately better than the other. On Spread sheet, ofcourse most will go for the higher DPS, but how many can actually perform as exact on what a spread sheet state? Unless you have real time logs of x amount of run on a boss (ferver vs DB vs Toth talent), a spread sheet is just an indication of you doing perfect rotation at 0 mistake.


    I personally prefer (SV) Toth cause i have more control vs Fervor, and it's a completely different playstyle.
    Yeah I'm no heroic progression hunter, but personally I just prefer toth because it's much easier to balance my rotation and keybinds around a proc than it is around another ability to add.

    And realistically I can't remember a time when I have focus capped myself unless I was afk or something. It just requires smart use of shots and proper ability priority.

  2. #42
    TotH is inferior single target on paper because it's RNG. If you have a string of TotH procs with only a single open cast in between them, you end up focus capped. This is lost DPS.

    On the flip side, if you go an extended period of time without a TotH proc, you are forced to cast extra Cobra Shots. Again, lost DPS.

    However, if you have trouble personally managing all the buttons hunters have, TotH probably will help you more personally than the other 2.

    Disregard all of this on AOE. TotH is by far the best on AOE. Especially for Survival.
    Last edited by Abysal; 2013-02-21 at 03:53 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    If you have a string of TotH procs with only a single open cast in between them, you end up focus capped. This is lost DPS.
    No it is not! Being focus capped is is not a DPS loss if you are doing your highest dps ability.
    Last edited by Namarus; 2013-02-21 at 04:22 AM.

  4. #44
    Just out of curiosity (been reading through this whole thread) since the question is asked towards survival is Dire Beast/Fervor recommended right now because of gear? I would imagine as we get more gear (perhaps in this next tier) that Thrill of the Hunt could be more enticing for Survival hunters due to it's scaling with mastery as it'll be easier to hit the expertise/hit caps and we'll either then want gear with crit/haste (to reach whatever haste level you feel comfortable with on Cobra Shot) and then after that grab crit/mastery gear if possible.

    This is just an observation on my end and I could be wrong. I personally prefer Thrill of the Hunt compared to the other two, but that's just my personal preference.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    No it is not! Being focus capped is is not a DPS loss if you are doing your highest dps ability.
    this is right, if you are doing max DPS and focus capped you cannot be losing DPS. You lose DPS when you lack the focus to do max DPS.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    This is horse shit. Misinformation like this pisses me off no end.

    Being focus capped while doing low damage abilities is bad.

    Being focus capped while doing your maximum damage abilities is not bad. You aren't wasting dps, you are doing MAXIMUM damage.
    But, your doing maximum damage, while wasting a proc, because your at full focus... thereby lessening the value of the proc (That means its worse)

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    TotH is inferior single target on paper because it's RNG. If you have a string of TotH procs with only a single open cast in between them, you end up focus capped. This is lost DPS.

    On the flip side, if you go an extended period of time without a TotH proc, you are forced to cast extra Cobra Shots. Again, lost DPS.

    However, if you have trouble personally managing all the buttons hunters have, TotH probably will help you more personally than the other 2.

    Disregard all of this on AOE. TotH is by far the best on AOE. Especially for Survival.


    Same goes with DB or Fervor...if you are focus hunger, ex shot and BA is off CD, and Fervor is not up, is definately a DPS lost...So, your point is?
    Focus Cap is only a DPS lost when you are casting Cobra while Cap, which gain no benefit.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydenkor View Post
    But, your doing maximum damage, while wasting a proc, because your at full focus... thereby lessening the value of the proc (That means its worse)
    This would be true if there was an ICD for ToTH. I have yet to ever have ToTH proc at a point where I was unable to use all the procs. 15s is more than enough time to spam Explosive Shot three time, Black Arrow, Glaive Toss and still get your three ToTH Arcane Shots off, and left over.
    Last edited by Namarus; 2013-02-21 at 04:55 AM.

  9. #49
    Yea, you shouldn't be focusing capping with TotH. Period. There's time to use Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, pretty much any other focus costing skill.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydenkor View Post
    But, your doing maximum damage, while wasting a proc, because your at full focus... thereby lessening the value of the proc (That means its worse)
    you are not "losing" damage though. You are still doing the most damage possible at that time. ToTH is a bonus focus talent, if you cap while it is active an while doing mac damage there is no DPS loss.

    My biggest issue with it is sometimes it can work so well you cobra shot so little SrS falls off. Personally i don't not feel like doing that much math to figure out if i should just fire SrS and get the imp SrS damage or fire off a cobra. In the long run its prolly a wash.

    The more i think about it in the long run i almost hope BM stays viable in 5.2, i know many people hate it but i have gotten used to it, and perform the best while playing that spec. I also do not like the style of SV simply because RNG dictates your damage more then your ability to play the spec well. I ran SV tonight in my raids and the other hunter in my guild has almost the EXACT same gear the only difference being he has the heroic elegon trinket and i do not, and it was shocking how much our DPS could differ, I could be up 3k one fight and the next he could be up 2k simply based on the RNG of lock and load. On Lei shi he beat me by 5k dps simply because his LnL proced every 10-12 seconds where mine averaged to be about every 15 seconds or so. Our skill level is basically the same yet RNG can sway DPS by up to 7%


    Back on topic, its impossible to lose DPS by focus capping if you are doing all your max damage abilities, it can just be unlucky RNG with ToTH procs.

  11. #51
    Just had to post because I noticed rickhunter owning himself with the "Fervor on GCD" post and then not replying to this thread since LOL good day sir.

  12. #52
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    I love Dire Beast myself, but I here Thrill of the Hunt is great for AoE.

  13. #53
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    The problem is, TOTH can and does overwrite itself. Plus, you may munch charges just because you need to CoS to keep SrS up. Plus numerous other things. The GCD-lock problem isn't in the 15s of the proc, but the 10s ICD of LnL. It is damn easy to proc a LnL, proc TOTH, have to fire BA, woops, that zeroed focus, time for a coupla cobras to be above 25 for the next LnL proc, have another LnL proc, oh woops, TOTH buff has already been overwritten by a new one. That's lost procs, and lost damage, and I imagine TOTH is balanced around not munching any AS at all.

    Fervor provides on demand focus when you need it, and focus-over-time after that. It is glorious. I love it. I end up firing *more* AS with it than I do with ToTH, as it provides 100 focus every 30s, which is equal to 5 actually used charges of ToTH in that time. Except Fervor lets me choose when I want to be firing those AS.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem is, TOTH can and does overwrite itself. Plus, you may munch charges just because you need to CoS to keep SrS up. Plus numerous other things. The GCD-lock problem isn't in the 15s of the proc, but the 10s ICD of LnL. It is damn easy to proc a LnL, proc TOTH, have to fire BA, woops, that zeroed focus, time for a coupla cobras to be above 25 for the next LnL proc, have another LnL proc, oh woops, TOTH buff has already been overwritten by a new one. That's lost procs, and lost damage, and I imagine TOTH is balanced around not munching any AS at all.

    Fervor provides on demand focus when you need it, and focus-over-time after that. It is glorious. I love it. I end up firing *more* AS with it than I do with ToTH, as it provides 100 focus every 30s, which is equal to 5 actually used charges of ToTH in that time. Except Fervor lets me choose when I want to be firing those AS.
    Fascinating example there, you do know that LNL has an ICD right? So your example makes no sense at all. If you have the focus why would you bother wasting time with a slow casting low damage cobra shot when an instant serpent sting is enough to get the job done. If you aren't doing attacks that require hunter to spend focus you cannot proc another ToTH. So yet more examples that make no sense at all. Why do you need focus for LNL when the first two explosive shots cost no mana? In that time you could use those Explosive Shots, then use the free arcane shots and then pop that explosive shot. You did more damage than doing a couple CoS to get focus for that Explosive Shot.
    Last edited by Namarus; 2013-02-21 at 05:49 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I end up firing *more* AS with it than I do with ToTH, as it provides 100 focus every 30s, which is equal to 5 actually used charges of ToTH in that time. Except Fervor lets me choose when I want to be firing those AS.
    I suggest you prove it by having a boss fight log or a screen shot of your recount "shots fired" and prove us what your "big statement". FYI, there are many top logs out there that everyone can compared to...If you don't have one, it's all words, but i highly doubt you are right...Put your money where your mouth is and bring us some numbers for us to crunch, i believe alot of people will be interested so that they can compare what suits them the most, which will be very helpful...

  16. #56
    TOTH maths out to less focus regen than Fervor, and while Fervor is worse than Dire Beast at least it's seriously good for AOE fights where your "fluid rotation" gets ruined by Multi-Shotting as a focus dump. There was a thread like this a few weeks ago, and someone posted the math. I'm too tired to find it at the moment.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    TOTH maths out to less focus regen than Fervor, and while Fervor is worse than Dire Beast at least it's seriously good for AOE fights where your "fluid rotation" gets ruined by Multi-Shotting as a focus dump. There was a thread like this a few weeks ago, and someone posted the math. I'm too tired to find it at the moment.
    Staying orc I see.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by rickhunterr View Post
    You're right, thats why if you read further down, it was put back on the GCD during 5.1, so ya you look like a fool.
    Congrats on embarrassing yourself instead of logging in and taking 5 seconds to test it yourself.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    No it is not! Being focus capped is is not a DPS loss if you are doing your highest dps ability.
    Although what you're saying is probably true, the very fact that I delay procs usage makes me feel REALLY bad, so I avoid TotH. I know that's a stupid reason, but I'm just too used to using procs as they become available, so can't help it.

    I like Fervor, because it's 100% predictable and makes the AMoC and BA usage way smoother. The only bad thing about it is that sometimes you can lose that extra focus if you get the LnL proc right after Fervor, but any ICD tracker solves this problem.

    Dire beast... I just don't like that it's on a GCD, feels clunky and completely out of SV's smooth flow of abilities. Also, it's a pet - 'nuff said.

  20. #60
    This thread is silly. Coulda saved two pages of arguing if you simply logged in and pressed your Fervor button.

    On topic, I've tested this tier on dummies for hours. This is my personal experience, take it with a grain of salt.

    They are all very close and situational.
    Dire Beast consistently does less DPS for me than the other two, even single target.
    Fervor and ToTH are very very close single target.
    Fervor is better for reliable burst.
    TotH is generally better for AoE, but RNG can be good or bad.

    I prefer Fervor in most situations. Fervor makes my rotation easier and more reliable. TotH makes my rotation more complicated and unreliable. Dire beast is another GCD I have to work in, and it's much easier for it to be wasted due to timing/target switching/getting killed.

    Dumping all my focus, Fervor then AMoC feels good.
    Getting TotH proc + Lock and Load + TotH proc, 100 focus, spamming arcane shots, serpent sting gonna fall off unless you cobra at 100 focus. Feels bad.

    Fervor FTW.
    Last edited by mediic; 2013-02-21 at 01:11 PM.

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