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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Thanks Draco for doing some maths for me.
    And ultimately I just wanted to say that overall the passive focus you would lose from toth is probably not much(although it may be depending on your focus management, but theoretically speaking anyways)
    My biggest thing was I didn't want people to get the misconception that its okay to be focus capped.(that can potentially be very damaging to a lesser experienced/knowledgeable person)
    Its not really even math, because the numbers do not take root in any real case scenario. It's basicly outlining what you're saying with a few numbers =P.
    I think the main issue with TOTH is its ability to cause up to 5 focus-free globals in a short amount of time (lnl+toth), it's relatively high chance to trigger another focus free 3 shots after those are expended (30%), and the fact that with Explo, BA and Glaive toss taking prio over arcane shot, you will end up "munching" procs occasionally, lessening the value of the talent.

  2. #142
    Well, what I think is for a higher skilled person, fervor or dire beast feel better because it goes better with fine-tuned focus management.

    I think with lower skilled players, to them toth feels smoother because they, to put it bluntly, suck at focus management.
    ToTH allows for easier focus management in a sense, because you have to do less arcane/cobra balancing.
    But also has negative side effects like cobra falling off, focus capping, and probably just not being as strong ST then the others.
    Overall I could see lower skilled players gaining more dps from ToTH.

    Hopefully you guys can understand that, it might be hard too.
    Last edited by Disfunctionz; 2013-02-24 at 10:21 PM.

  3. #143
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    I just tried using Fervor on Grand Empress and it gave a lot, LOT more complexity over ToTH, imo. With timing it with other cooldowns and readiness. =/

    Ohhh well, if it turns out to be a big dps increase I'll get used to it eventually.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Well, what I think is for a higher skilled person, fervor or dire beast feel better because it goes better with fine-tuned focus management.

    I think with lower skilled players, to them toth feels smoother because they, to put it bluntly, suck at focus management.
    ToTH allows for easier focus management in a sense, because you have to do less arcane/cobra balancing.
    But also has negative side effects like cobra falling off, focus capping, and probably just not being as strong ST then the others.
    Overall I could see lower skilled players gaining more dps from ToTH.

    Hopefully you guys can understand that, it might be hard too.


    This pmuch the most retarded thing i've heard which stupified me. This is a discussion regarding Fervor vs DB vs TOTH and i'm psure you've turned 12 y.o. Keyboard warrior shit. If you can't hold an arguement without proving DB, Fervor needs more skill > Toth, you sir, should not infect all other with your stupidity.




    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Its very simple logic.
    No math has to be present.

    You A. are not capped and have your procs. You use them and gain FULL passive focus at the same time increasing your overall focus in the course of a fight witch increases your arcane/cobra ratio.

    You B. are capped and have your procs. You use them and gain LESS passive focus at the same time.

    Your saying that using the same procs/abilities and gaining LESS focus is better than using the same procs/abilities and gaing MORE focus?
    I think its pretty obvious that more focus is better given the fact that the procs/abilities will still get used, do the same dmg, and cost the same amount of focus capped or not.

    I swear I have explained this simple logic 7 times by now in this thread.


    That only applies if Ex shots and BA is off CD, and you are dreaming, if not, those imaginary figure doesn't exist, and btw, "You're".



    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Also as you already mentioned, TotH takes 3 GCDs of forced AS spamming, where Fervor could let you use AS, ES, BA or even aMoC without the need to use Cobra as much in between each of them.



    It can work in both ways, ,and not to mention, if Fervor is on CD too, mind you.


    But the only question is, does the amount of Arcane shot compensate what Fervor provides for pet's DPS, or does it weight the same?

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    This pmuch the most retarded thing i've heard which stupified me. This is a discussion regarding Fervor vs DB vs TOTH and i'm psure you've turned 12 y.o. Keyboard warrior shit. If you can't hold an arguement without proving DB, Fervor needs more skill > Toth, you sir, should not infect all other with your stupidity.








    That only applies if Ex shots and BA is off CD, and you are dreaming, if not, those imaginary figure doesn't exist, and btw, "You're".








    It can work in both ways, ,and not to mention, if Fervor is on CD too, mind you.


    But the only question is, does the amount of Arcane shot compensate what Fervor provides for pet's DPS, or does it weight the same?
    Verbs, spelling and grammar are your friends. It's hard to understand what you are trying to say.

    Could someone please explain to me what he's trying to say? Thanks.

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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Verbs, spelling and grammar are your friends. It's hard to understand what you are trying to say.

    Could someone please explain to me what he's trying to say? Thanks.


    Oh god, Sorry Mrs Smith, my English teacher from the 1st grade. I wonder how many times did you check your post before submitting...I didn't know there is so many keyboard warriors/kinder garden teacher around this hour.

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-02-25 at 07:38 PM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Oh god, Sorry Mrs Smith, my English teacher from the 1st grade. I wonder how many times did you check your post before submitting...I didn't know there is so many keyboard warriors/kinder garden teacher around this hour.
    Stay on topic. If your post isn't clear then you should correct it. People asking you what you meant isn't an insult if they literally can't understand what you are saying.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Oh god, Sorry Mrs Smith, my English teacher from the 1st grade. I wonder how many times did you check your post before submitting...I didn't know there is so many keyboard warriors/kinder garden teacher around this hour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Your saying

    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    "You're"

    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    "You're"
    Hypocrite?

    Can you please just try to explain your first post to me? Also for my sanity can you please at least try to use proper grammar?

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  9. #149
    The above post is the best ever!!!!!

    Contribute. Don't continue the off-topic posting
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-02-25 at 07:39 PM.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    This pmuch the most retarded thing i've heard which stupified me. This is a discussion regarding Fervor vs DB vs TOTH and i'm psure you've turned 12 y.o. Keyboard warrior shit. If you can't hold an arguement without proving DB, Fervor needs more skill > Toth, you sir, should not infect all other with your stupidity.
    What the HELL is wrong with you?

    Saying that different spells from the same tier in a talent tree takes different levels of skill to utilize for maximum potential is a very valid point, why the hell are you acting like he just said that all hunters are noobs?

    It's a very discussed subject for different classes, that you can have a very complicated rotation compared to other talents, but if you can manage that rotation you will in return get maybe 1-2% higher dps and whether or not that will in fact be worth it compared to the risk of loosing attention time on the fight or if it will make you mess up more often negating the benefit in total.

    So please take a chill pill.

  11. #151
    Ok i'll try to edit what i've said...


    It doesn't take a genius to figure, no matter what talent you take up, you still require some skill to manage your focus. However, Disfunction totally ignores what ever arguement he has put up with, which summarise with big words and total ignorance for what he'd commented.


    2nd of all, TOTH rarely puts you at focus cap (if you know how to react and manage). Though there is higher chance to do so when you have RF + berserker (troll) + Lust + execute phase and you have all procs at the same time, same goes with Fervor. To say Fervor needs to plan further ahead in terms of focus management? Most likely is the other way round. TOTH requires you to know exactly how much Focus you can spend and not "over cooked it" while your Passive regen is enough for your next Ex shot or BA (coming off CD ofcourse), but for Fervor, is like "oh my Fervor is off CD in 2 sec so i can spam my arcane now, use one cobra, pop BA then Ex shot, and i have another Arcane to spare, then back to Cobra" if you want me to put it that way.


    3rd of all, Does your Pet dmg from Fervor doing more dmg than TOTH Arcane proc? and i saw a post where pet vs pet, it does 9 more special or smth. Does that 9 special = or Greater if compare to the dmg done by the number of Arcane shots fired? Spread sheet only gives you a stand still "number" that your toon can pad, nothing more.


    If it's still not clear, please do say.
    Last edited by Irzerg; 2013-02-25 at 04:15 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Ok i'll try to edit what i've said...


    It doesn't take a genius to figure, no matter what talent you take up, you still require some skill to manage your focus. However, Disfunction totally ignores what ever arguement he has put up with, which summarise with big words and total ignorance for what he'd commented.


    2nd of all, TOTH rarely puts you at focus cap (if you know how to react and manage). Though there is higher chance to do so when you have RF + berserker (troll) + Lust + execute phase and you have all procs at the same time, same goes with Fervor. To say Fervor needs to plan further ahead in terms of focus management? Most likely is the other way round. TOTH requires you to know exactly how much Focus you can spend and not "over cooked it" while your Passive regen is enough for your next Ex shot or BA (coming off CD ofcourse), but for Fervor, is like "oh my Fervor is off CD in 2 sec so i can spam my arcane now, use one cobra, pop BA then Ex shot, and i have another Arcane to spare, then back to Cobra" if you want me to put it that way.

    If it's still not clear, please do say.

    What?

    1st I simply cannot understand.

    And the 2nd one, I think you misunderstood what you where replying to in the first place.

    3rd has nothing to do with me.
    But props that I can actually understand it!

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    What?

    1st I simply cannot understand.

    And the 2nd one, I think you misunderstood what you where replying to in the first place.

    3rd has nothing to do with me.
    But props that I can actually understand it!



    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Well, what I think is for a higher skilled person, fervor or dire beast feel better because it goes better with fine-tuned focus management.

    I think with lower skilled players, to them toth feels smoother because they, to put it bluntly, suck at focus management.
    ToTH allows for easier focus management in a sense, because you have to do less arcane/cobra balancing.
    But also has negative side effects like cobra falling off, focus capping, and probably just not being as strong ST then the others.
    Overall I could see lower skilled players gaining more dps from ToTH.

    Hopefully you guys can understand that, it might be hard too.


    Hopefully you understand your own post, which i highlighted Bold. Not sure is that bold part a kind of misunderstanding, or my degree of understanding is that bad.


    So lets leave the pointless arguement and stay on topic.
    Last edited by Irzerg; 2013-02-25 at 04:11 AM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Ok i'll try to edit what i've said...


    It doesn't take a genius to figure, no matter what talent you take up, you still require some skill to manage your focus. However, Disfunction totally ignores what ever arguement he has put up with, which summarise with big words and total ignorance for what he'd commented.


    2nd of all, TOTH rarely puts you at focus cap (if you know how to react and manage). Though there is higher chance to do so when you have RF + berserker (troll) + Lust + execute phase and you have all procs at the same time, same goes with Fervor. To say Fervor needs to plan further ahead in terms of focus management? Most likely is the other way round. TOTH requires you to know exactly how much Focus you can spend and not "over cooked it" while your Passive regen is enough for your next Ex shot or BA (coming off CD ofcourse), but for Fervor, is like "oh my Fervor is off CD in 2 sec so i can spam my arcane now, use one cobra, pop BA then Ex shot, and i have another Arcane to spare, then back to Cobra" if you want me to put it that way.


    3rd of all, Does your Pet dmg from Fervor doing more dmg than TOTH Arcane proc? and i saw a post where pet vs pet, it does 9 more special or smth. Does that 9 special = or Greater if compare to the dmg done by the number of Arcane shots fired? Spread sheet only gives you a stand still "number" that your toon can pad, nothing more.


    If it's still not clear, please do say.
    I agree with most of what you have said there. ToTH works well if you know how to manage your focus. The side tangent that was discuss about passive regen is totally irrelevant because as you say rarely if ever you are at max focus for it to be a problem. If you are at max focus, generally are doing it wrong. At most times when I've had focus problems with ToTH it has been I don't have enough focus for AMoC. At which point I'm using cobras to get that, but I can't recall when I've actually had issues with focus.

  15. #155
    You actually did misunderstand.
    At a max level of play I agree ToTH is the hardest to manage correctly.
    But at a low lvl of play In my opinion I believe that ToTH is the most forgiving.(witch was the point I was trying to make)
    I dont know how you got that I think ToTH is the easiest talent to manage at max play out of what I said.
    I clearly said lower skilled players.

    Dire beast is the obvious choice for easiest to manage in general.
    And what I said about DB or Ferv being better for fine-tuned focus management.
    What I meant was it makes it easier to manage focus well at high lvls of play.
    Really this is all my opinion.
    But there is nothing wrong with stating your opinion in a discussion as long as you don't claim it to be fact without evidence.
    Last edited by Disfunctionz; 2013-02-25 at 04:59 AM.

  16. #156
    well we are all talking about max level play here.. the topic itself is talking about guides and theorycraft suggesting certain talents above others.. It's max theoretical dmg of the TALENT, not player skill level.. And this entire debate about losing dps while focus capped is completely irrelevant because a skilled player would never let that happen in the first place.. So I don't care if it's a dps loss to be focus capped or not, because that situation should never arise.. If it is, it's a problem with the player not the talent..

    The only thing that merits discussion is the max potential focus gain and the pet dmg aspect of both fervor and DB vs ToTH's pure focus gain.. And after going through all the information, it seems that fervor's pet focus increase inches it ahead of ToTH's 'average' overall focus gain.. 'average'.. So as a general rule fervor seems better.. But why have we completely negated DB ? There's a reason why it is always the preferred talent according to all the sims.. Granted on fights like garalon and such where there is aoe dmg/puddles on the ground that could kill your pet, or fights with pet travel time, that completely devalues DB.. but what about fights where there isn't any dmg ? Pure single targets ? like feng for instance..

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyflu View Post
    I just tried using Fervor on Grand Empress and it gave a lot, LOT more complexity over ToTH, imo. With timing it with other cooldowns and readiness. =/

    Ohhh well, if it turns out to be a big dps increase I'll get used to it eventually.
    IMO, you over-complicate things. You typically don't want to delay Fervor too much, since the CD is so short. The rule of thumb for me is to never use it when at or above 50 focus (obvious) and when LnL is off CD (arguable, so I don't always do that). Also, dump it before popping Readiness (obvious).

    Basically, make sure you're low on focus when the CD is about to expire and use it on CD, that's it.

  18. #158
    simmed my toon on femaledwarf.com.

    497.8 ilvl according to that site.

    my usual SV spec has dire beast.

    4k dps loss using TotH.

    5k dps loss with Fervor.

    think i'ma keep to DB :3

  19. #159
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Extraordinaire View Post
    simmed my toon on femaledwarf.com.

    497.8 ilvl according to that site.

    my usual SV spec has dire beast.

    4k dps loss using TotH.

    5k dps loss with Fervor.

    think i'ma keep to DB :3
    Calling BullShit on this, I'm at 500 ilvl and DB is a 300 DPS loss over Fervor and TotH loses by 1.8k to Fervor.

  20. #160
    They're all so close it's barely worth thinking about.

    If you want to micro-manage focus, go Fervor.
    If you want something to fire on CD, go Dire Beast.
    If you want another random proc, go Thrill of the Hunt.

    Pick whichever suits your playstyle. You can't make a wrong choice in this talent tier IMO.

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