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  1. #101
    Since we have a topic on law and ownership of account and characters, here is something I always wanted to know but can't find a good answer to.

    Now, we all say that the account we're playing in is not ours but Blizzard's.
    All the characters we're playing are not our but Blizzard's.
    They have the right to with those what they want, because they own it.

    Now, let's say I cancel my sub.
    In this case:
    Can Blizzard sell my account? Or sel a license to someone else to access that account?
    Can Blizzard sell the characters on that account individually?
    Can Blizzard take all belongings from any char and sell it someone else, or give?

    If Blizzard owns all of that, I reckon they can do that.... or not?
    What does it mean "Blizzard owns all that stuff"?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevski View Post
    Granted, I'm just a silly 3rd Year law student. But it seems a lot like a good deal of WoW's "these characters are not your property but ours" shpiel would fall on its face in a majority of states because the EULA is an adhesion contract?
    Very true. Also every time they make us resign, is that not a form of duress? If a Contract is entered into in Duress is it enforceable? Ie: "Hey buddy. Sign this or I won't let you access property you have invested in!" That falls under conversion I believe. Honestly I wish someone would sue Blizzard's ass and make them a little more friendly.

    The idea that my contract was voided after a major content patch would be irony. I am aware of course that Experience may change, but I would dispute fundamentally altering the benefit of the bargain without player approval. Take Cross Realm Zoos for example.

    Player A Transfer to get away from Player B. Player A pays Blizzard $25.00.
    Player B resumes harassment through CRZ which Blizzard implemented.

    Was Player A not deprived of the benefit of the bargain?
    Should Blizzard be estopped from implementing the system when the above is the case?

    Discuss.


    ..God I sound like a bad FYLSX Test.
    Last edited by LichslayerX; 2013-02-22 at 12:24 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Wrong.... you agreed to the EULA.... the characters belong to Blizzard. period.
    EULA is not valid in my country. period.
    Also, what if someone who doesn't understand english just click on "I agree"?
    Last edited by Sipalb; 2013-02-22 at 01:15 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    Since we have a topic on law and ownership of account and characters, here is something I always wanted to know but can't find a good answer to.

    Now, we all say that the account we're playing in is not ours but Blizzard's.
    All the characters we're playing are not our but Blizzard's.
    They have the right to with those what they want, because they own it.

    Now, let's say I cancel my sub.
    In this case:
    Can Blizzard sell my account? Or sel a license to someone else to access that account?
    Can Blizzard sell the characters on that account individually?
    Can Blizzard take all belongings from any char and sell it someone else, or give?

    If Blizzard owns all of that, I reckon they can do that.... or not?
    What does it mean "Blizzard owns all that stuff"?
    Are they allowed to do it? Pretty sure yes.
    Will they do it? No..
    Sell account/chars: No. Because people might come back. And as a business it would be bad practice to allow people to buy their way into end-game instead of spending time (And paying money) leveling.
    Sell items to someone else: No. They own the game. They can create any and all items at their leisure. There would be no point in selling items from another account.

    Quote Originally Posted by LichslayerX View Post
    Player A Transfer to get away from Player B. Player A pays Blizzard $25.00.
    Player B resumes harassment through CRZ which Blizzard implemented.
    Pretty sure Player B would be banned/punished prior to Player A having to migrate.
    And the harassment can only be possible if the 2 players are in the same CRZ group. And the same zone within it.
    Last edited by zyx; 2013-02-22 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by LichslayerX View Post
    Player A Transfer to get away from Player B. Player A pays Blizzard $25.00.
    Player B resumes harassment through CRZ which Blizzard implemented.

    Was Player A not deprived of the benefit of the bargain?
    Should Blizzard be estopped from implementing the system when the above is the case?
    Player A was not deprived of anything. They paid for a realm transfer. They did not pay for a "I never want to see Player B again". Those are 2 different things with different scopes.

  6. #106
    Brewmaster DieFichte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blapis View Post
    EULA is not valid in my country. period.
    Also, what if someone who doesn't understand english just click on "I agree"?
    I guess the german, italian, french, spanish, russian, portugese (?) and the asian versions of WoW have all translated "I agree" buttons! And if you don't understand any language WoW offers...well, smart guy!

    And I would be interested to hear what invalidates the EULA/ToS in your country. (It's hard to invalidate a contract signed by both parties about something as trivial was a computer game)

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blapis View Post
    EULA is not valid in my country. period.
    Also, what if someone who doesn't understand english just click on "I agree"?
    Then YOU aren't allowed to play, since you can't agree to the EULA, which is required to play the game. Exactly what part of your account do you think you own anyway?

    If you don't understand the EULA (whether or not it's because you don't speak English), you shouldn't click "I agree", because that implies you've read it and you agree with it. Understanding a contract isn't needed for a person to agree to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Player A was not deprived of anything. They paid for a realm transfer. They did not pay for a "I never want to see Player B again". Those are 2 different things with different scopes.
    This. Blizzard offers a paid service that moves your character. Not one that makes sure you'll never hear from someone again.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nope. Exactly the same thing.
    No, they are not. When you borrow something, you return something equivalent. When you rent it, you return that object.
    Renting consumables, shares or money is completely pointless, since you wouldn't be able to do anything with them.

    Neither applies to a WoW account. You're not renting or borrowing space on Blizzards servers, you are paying for a service that includes being able to use their servers to play.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    I guess the german, italian, french, spanish, russian, portugese (?) and the asian versions of WoW have all translated "I agree" buttons! And if you don't understand any language WoW offers...well, smart guy!

    And I would be interested to hear what invalidates the EULA/ToS in your country. (It's hard to invalidate a contract signed by both parties about something as trivial was a computer game)
    In the EU it is required for the terms of a contract be made available prior to the exchange of any funds if you buy a boxed copy of WOW you are not able to view the terms and conditions until you install the game as the purchaser had no access to the t&c and no opportunity to agree or disagree to them prior to purchase they cannot be bound by its terms. Also, the lack of right to a refund is a breach of statutory rights and in some countries this may be grounds for the whole contract to be rendered invalid.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    In the EU it is required for the terms of a contract be made available prior to the exchange of any funds if you buy a boxed copy of WOW you are not able to view the terms and conditions until you install the game as the purchaser had no access to the t&c and no opportunity to agree or disagree to them prior to purchase they cannot be bound by its terms. Also, the lack of right to a refund is a breach of statutory rights and in some countries this may be grounds for the whole contract to be rendered invalid.
    Isn't the contract available when you pay for the sub?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    In the EU it is required for the terms of a contract be made available prior to the exchange of any funds if you buy a boxed copy of WOW you are not able to view the terms and conditions until you install the game as the purchaser had no access to the t&c and no opportunity to agree or disagree to them prior to purchase they cannot be bound by its terms. Also, the lack of right to a refund is a breach of statutory rights and in some countries this may be grounds for the whole contract to be rendered invalid.
    You can google it before you buy it though:
    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company.../wow_eula.html
    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html

    And you can have a refund as long as you have not used the item you bought (At least here). If the boxed copy/game time card is unscratched, then you would be able to get a refund just fine.
    But as soon as you open the box or reveal the code, the item is then used and can no longer be refunded.

    When you buy online, you get the code attached to your account as soon as you pay, so it's instantly "used".
    Want to try the game without any strings attached? Oh look, a wow trial account! (Which should also show the eula on first launch, so yeah).

  12. #112
    That you can google it is irrelevant. It has to be provided to you, not the other way around.
    WoW can get around this since the subscription is separate from the game itself, so they can put an EULA up for you before you agree to get an account.

    Also, that "open box cannot be refunded" is bullshit. Many boxes have to be opened to determine if the contents are in working order, and have to be refunded if they aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    I guess the german, italian, french, spanish, russian, portugese (?) and the asian versions of WoW have all translated "I agree" buttons! And if you don't understand any language WoW offers...well, smart guy!

    And I would be interested to hear what invalidates the EULA/ToS in your country. (It's hard to invalidate a contract signed by both parties about something as trivial was a computer game)
    Usually, it simply doesn't matter if you can't understand it provided that you would have been able to, had you tried(i.e. get a translator etc.).

    EULAs and ToS are invalid in general in germany(don't know about other countries) if they are introduced after purchase. I.e. if you go to a shop(or order online), and were not informed of their existence and their contents before purchase, they are invalid. Which applies to just about any software EULA.
    This also means that in germany, you actually buy the software, not just a licence, and can demand from the merchant(not the developer, though, unless they happen to be the same) that he fixes faults it has... like not being able to use it because the EULA is invalid.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-02-22 at 02:36 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Isn't the contract available when you pay for the sub?
    You have to buy the boxed game before you can pay for a sub, but this does not apply to online purchases of the game as you are given the t&c prior to payment.

    Quote Originally Posted by zyx View Post
    You can google it before you buy you know: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company.../wow_eula.html

    And you can have a refund as long as you have not used the item you bought (At least here). If the boxed copy/game time card is unscratched, then you would be able to get a refund just fine.
    But as soon as you open the box or reveal the code, the item is then used and can no longer be refunded.

    When you buy online, you get the code attached to your account as soon as you pay, so it's instantly "used".
    Want to try the game without any strings attached? Oh look, a wow trial account!
    The fact that the t&c are available online is irrelevant the service provider has to provide the customer with the terms prior to purchase/payment.

    The issue with refunds arises from the fact that in order to view the t&c you have to install the game, as you said, it is now classed as used if you do not agree to the t&c you are ineligible for a refund which is a breach of statutory rights.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The fact that the t&c are available online is irrelevant the service provider has to provide the customer with the terms prior to purchase/payment.

    The issue with refunds arises from the fact that in order to view the t&c you have to install the game, as you said, it is now classed as used if you do not agree to the t&c you are ineligible for a refund which is a breach of statutory rights.
    But you can install the game from the trial if you wish before you buy it.

    I'm pretty sure Blizzards own lawyers has been discussing this for ages as well. Pretty much everything here can be countered in some way. Granted, I can see the point you are coming from, I don't mind it, as I have no intention of wanting to buy/sell my account.
    If someone were to sue blizzard for whatever they think (And probably is in their legal right to do so in their country), these questions and counters will most likely be used by their and Blizzards lawyer as well.
    And I bet the user/consumer will run out of money for lawyers before Blizzard does, to be honest.

    So, in the end:
    Is what Blizzard does legal? It's probably in a grey area. But again, I don't care that the "EULA I accepted is invalid" and that "I should be allowed to resell my account", because I don't want to.

  15. #115
    Brewmaster DieFichte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The issue with refunds arises from the fact that in order to view the t&c you have to install the game, as you said, it is now classed as used if you do not agree to the t&c you are ineligible for a refund which is a breach of statutory rights.
    No you don't have to install the game for reading the T&C, because there is this textbox on every retail product of blizzard (and online) that is marked important and explains that you have to agree to the ToS/EULA if you want to play this game and you can read them there on that website.
    So you want to actually get the entire ToS in hardcopy form at the retailer, to read it up?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    No you don't have to install the game for reading the T&C, because there is this textbox on every retail product of blizzard (and online) that is marked important and explains that you have to agree to the ToS/EULA if you want to play this game and you can read them there on that website.
    So you want to actually get the entire ToS in hardcopy form at the retailer, to read it up?
    As silly as that sounds, yes, that's what has to happen, otherwise it is invalid in europe.

  17. #117
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, they are not. When you borrow something, you return something equivalent. When you rent it, you return that object.
    Same thing.
    Renting consumables, shares or money is completely pointless, since you wouldn't be able to do anything with them.
    You can trade them. Which is why people do it.
    Neither applies to a WoW account. You're not renting or borrowing space on Blizzards servers, you are paying for a service that includes being able to use their servers to play.
    You are borrowing their server space. Or renting it, if you prefer.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    No you don't have to install the game for reading the T&C, because there is this textbox on every retail product of blizzard (and online) that is marked important and explains that you have to agree to the ToS/EULA if you want to play this game and you can read them there on that website.
    So you want to actually get the entire ToS in hardcopy form at the retailer, to read it up?
    From what I have been able to find (which admittedly isn't much), as I understand it there is still some question as to whether or not that declaration satisfies the requirement of making an EULA/ToS available pre-purchase. Basically that specific implementation has never been challenged in Germany/EU as far as I can find. Until someone challenges it, software companies have interpreted that decision to mean that they must make the terms of the agreement available in some fashion to the consumer without prior purchase.

    Also of note is that while the EULA may or may not be enforceable in Germany and some other countries, international copyright laws very much still apply. Blizzard would likely just sue you for violation of copyright, as it has been very firmly established that the purchase of software does not transfer copyright ownership privileges.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-02-22 at 02:53 PM.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  19. #119
    Brewmaster DieFichte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    As silly as that sounds, yes, that's what has to happen, otherwise it is invalid in europe.
    Then, I apologize and realise once more: The EU laws are retarded beyond anything. (And yes please call it EU and not europe)

  20. #120
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    Then, I apologize and realise once more: The EU laws are retarded beyond anything. (And yes please call it EU and not europe)
    Eulas themselves are sketchy. No one reads them, bringing the whole meeting of minds thing into doubt.
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