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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by zyx View Post
    But you can install the game from the trial if you wish before you buy it.

    I'm pretty sure Blizzards own lawyers has been discussing this for ages as well. Pretty much everything here can be countered in some way. Granted, I can see the point you are coming from, I don't mind it, as I have no intention of wanting to buy/sell my account.
    If someone were to sue blizzard for whatever they think (And probably is in their legal right to do so in their country), these questions and counters will most likely be used by their and Blizzards lawyer as well.
    And I bet the user/consumer will run out of money for lawyers before Blizzard does, to be honest.

    So, in the end:
    Is what Blizzard does legal? It's probably in a grey area. But again, I don't care that the "EULA I accepted is invalid" and that "I should be allowed to resell my account", because I don't want to.
    It is the responsibility of the service provider to ensure that the potential customer has access to the t&c of the contract not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by DieFichte View Post
    No you don't have to install the game for reading the T&C, because there is this textbox on every retail product of blizzard (and online) that is marked important and explains that you have to agree to the ToS/EULA if you want to play this game and you can read them there on that website.
    So you want to actually get the entire ToS in hardcopy form at the retailer, to read it up?
    It doesn't matter that there is a little bit of text on the back of the box. The purchaser must be given the opportunity to either agree or disagree to the terms of the contract prior to purchase therefore the full t&c must, there are no exceptions, be made available to them before money is exchanged

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    Since we have a topic on law and ownership of account and characters, here is something I always wanted to know but can't find a good answer to.

    Now, we all say that the account we're playing in is not ours but Blizzard's.
    All the characters we're playing are not our but Blizzard's.
    They have the right to with those what they want, because they own it.

    Now, let's say I cancel my sub.
    In this case:
    Can Blizzard sell my account? Or sel a license to someone else to access that account?
    Can Blizzard sell the characters on that account individually?
    Can Blizzard take all belongings from any char and sell it someone else, or give?

    If Blizzard owns all of that, I reckon they can do that.... or not?
    What does it mean "Blizzard owns all that stuff"?
    There's no "stuff". It's variables and pixels. They can recreate or duplicate or destroy the values for those variables if they want to simulate "selling" or in any other way transferring anything from one account to another. I'm not saying "legally, they can", I'm saying they have the programming tools to do so.

    So many people in this thread are treating gear, gold and achievements as material commodities. They're variables which Blizzard can modify or recreate out of virtual thin air.

    As to the question of account transferability, even if you were able to compel Blizzard to let you transfer an account, there's nothing keeping them from just virtually torching it by deleting all your characters and gold and items and everything attached to it.

    People who think this is a real issue need a lesson in the difference between computer simulation and reality.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 02:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Eulas themselves are sketchy. No one reads them, bringing the whole meeting of minds thing into doubt.
    "I'm not bound by the terms because I didn't read them"?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LichslayerX View Post
    Very true. Also every time they make us resign, is that not a form of duress? If a Contract is entered into in Duress is it enforceable? Ie: "Hey buddy. Sign this or I won't let you access property you have invested in!" That falls under conversion I believe. Honestly I wish someone would sue Blizzard's ass and make them a little more friendly.
    You're not investing in Blizzard any more than you're investing in McDonald's when you get your next bucket of chicken nuggets. What is the "duress"? That you won't get your way?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Eulas themselves are sketchy. No one reads them, bringing the whole meeting of minds thing into doubt.
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/full...-humancentipad

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    "I'm not bound by the terms because I didn't read them"?
    You are correct that not reading the t&c is not a reason that someone should not be bound by them, however this is not an excuse for companies to include unfair terms knowing full well that customers will not notice them.

  5. #125
    Yeah, you only have to be enabled to read them. Whether you actually do is up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Same thing.
    Uh, no. Having to return the same object you rented is completely different from just returning something equivalent. When you rent a car, you have to return that car, not any car of the same make. When you borrow a car, you can do that.

    Also, no, you're not borrowing anything from Blizzard. You're allowed to use their stuff, but you neither possess nor own it.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You are correct that not reading the t&c is not a reason that someone should not be bound by them, however this is not an excuse for companies to include unfair terms knowing full well that customers will not notice them.
    What "unfair terms"? Blizzard could demand your eternal soul and as long as you have the opportunity to say no it wouldn't matter.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    What "unfair terms"? Blizzard could demand your eternal soul and as long as you have the opportunity to say no it wouldn't matter.
    Actually they couldn't. Or at least that portion of the contract would not be enforceable. That is related to the whole "unconscionable" debate from earlier in the thread. Basically, terms that are vastly unfair toward one party or that no "reasonable" person would agree to, can't be enforced regardless of whether or not the overall contract terms were agreed to at some point. Blizzard could not, for example, make it a term of your subscription that Blizzard is able to take all property you own if you fail to stay subscribed for a certain amount of time.

    At the end of the day though, any contract provision is valid unless legally challenged by one of the parties involved.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-02-22 at 03:27 PM.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  8. #128
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Yeah, you only have to be enabled to read them. Whether you actually do is up to you.
    Easy to show general practice on the net is to not read them. This would de facto put the burden on the person who wants their stuff read.

    Uh, no. Having to return the same object you rented is completely different from just returning something equivalent. When you rent a car, you have to return that car, not any car of the same make. When you borrow a car, you can do that.
    You only return an equivalent item due to the impossibility of indentifying the original item. The original item is still what you actually owe.
    Also, no, you're not borrowing anything from Blizzard. You're allowed to use their stuff, but you neither possess nor own it.
    You do posses the character you control - and you don't own stuff you rent, either.

    And yes, you do possess it (as far as you can with this sort of IP)
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Easy to show general practice on the net is to not read them. This would de facto put the burden on the person who wants their stuff read.
    No sensible court would put additional burdens on a company to compensate for general idiocy. What are they supposed to do, send a representative to your house to go through it with you and quiz you on it?

    There comes a point where the consumer has a responsibility to know what he's getting into. You can't just go into a financial contract and say "oh no, I didn't read it! So now I should get whatever I want!"

  10. #130
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blapis View Post
    EULA is not valid in my country. period.
    Also, what if someone who doesn't understand english just click on "I agree"?
    just because you dont bother to read or understand it and click/'sign' the contract/EULA then you are still bound by it.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    What "unfair terms"? Blizzard could demand your eternal soul and as long as you have the opportunity to say no it wouldn't matter.
    My post wasn't aimed at Blizzard in particular but when it comes to software the one unfair term that immediately springs to mind and appears to be quite common is By installing this software you agree to the terms of use which you can only view by installing the software and one of the terms will be that you give up your right to a refund.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    just because you dont bother to read or understand it and click/'sign' the contract/EULA then you are still bound by it.
    You mention not bothering read to something and only a few posts up it has been explained why the EULA is invalid in many countries.

  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    No sensible court would put additional burdens on a company to compensate for general idiocy. What are they supposed to do, send a representative to your house to go through it with you and quiz you on it?
    Courts can do and do exactly this. That's why you see notices around when people want to do things and inform the public, they have to take advers in the press etc etc
    There comes a point where the consumer has a responsibility to know what he's getting into. You can't just go into a financial contract and say "oh no, I didn't read it! So now I should get whatever I want!"
    Yes, you can. If what you thought you were getting and what you actually got are vastly different, you weren't properly informed (especially when the other party knew it's unlikely that you knew*) and your understanding of matters is also what the average person would understand in the same situation then you have a good position in any dispute.



    * Likelihood of blizzard knowing hardly anyone reads the eula = 100%, for example.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is the responsibility of the service provider to ensure that the potential customer has access to the t&c of the contract not the other way around.
    Does the potential costumer not have access to the t&c online whenever said costumer wants to look at it?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Courts can do and do exactly this. That's why you see notices around when people want to do things and inform the public, they have to take advers in the press etc etc


    Yes, you can. If what you thought you were getting and what you actually got are vastly different, you weren't properly informed (especially when the other party knew it's unlikely that you knew*) and your understanding of matters is also what the average person would understand in the same situation then you have a good position in any dispute.



    * Likelihood of blizzard knowing hardly anyone reads the eula = 100%, for example.
    But it has been held, in the US at least, that things like EULAs are considered legally binding contracts, with the action of clicking an "I accept" button being the electronic equivalent of a signature. Further, there is mountains of legal precedent reinforcing the idea that not reading the contract does not get you out of the terms stated therein if you agree to them by signing the contract, and you had the opportunity to read the contract before agreeing to the terms, unless the terms themselves are ruled unconscionable.

    In short, ignorance is not a defense against having to abide by a legal contract you freely entered into.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    just because you dont bother to read or understand it and click/'sign' the contract/EULA then you are still bound by it.
    Nope, country law >eula. Companys are forced to play by countrys rules, simply writing an eula doesnt change that.
    Because of that i can legally resell my wow account regardless of eula in my country.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, you can. If what you thought you were getting and what you actually got are vastly different, you weren't properly informed (especially when the other party knew it's unlikely that you knew*) and your understanding of matters is also what the average person would understand in the same situation then you have a good position in any dispute.

    * Likelihood of blizzard knowing hardly anyone reads the eula = 100%, for example.
    Do you not get exactly what you agree to in the EULA?
    And if I chose not to read the EULA and because blizzard knows that hardly anyone reads it, I'm legibly in a good position in any dispute?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Nope, country law >eula. Companys are forced to play by countrys rules, simply writing an eula doesnt change that.
    Because of that i can legally resell my wow account regardless of eula in my country.
    You can yes, but the account will still be banned if found out.
    Want to sue Blizzard for it? Go right ahead and good luck.
    Last edited by zyx; 2013-02-22 at 05:01 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by zyx View Post
    Does the potential costumer not have access to the t&c online whenever said costumer wants to look at it?
    Do you know any shops that have the facilities that allow you view the t&c prior to purchase?
    Last edited by Pann; 2013-02-22 at 05:00 PM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Courts can do and do exactly this. That's why you see notices around when people want to do things and inform the public, they have to take advers in the press etc etc


    Yes, you can. If what you thought you were getting and what you actually got are vastly different, you weren't properly informed (especially when the other party knew it's unlikely that you knew*) and your understanding of matters is also what the average person would understand in the same situation then you have a good position in any dispute.



    * Likelihood of blizzard knowing hardly anyone reads the eula = 100%, for example.
    I don't think any court should be endorsing the idea that a consumer can deliberately choose to ignore terms presented to them and free themselves from being bound by them. No court should endorse that kind of stupidity at the expense of the party that did their part (the company). It shouldn't be any more complicated than "know what you're getting into, or do not participate".

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 05:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Nope, country law >eula. Companys are forced to play by countrys rules, simply writing an eula doesnt change that.
    Because of that i can legally resell my wow account regardless of eula in my country.
    The country law is moronic then. And even if you did resell your account they could still delete everything you have.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Nope, country law >eula. Companys are forced to play by countrys rules, simply writing an eula doesnt change that.
    Because of that i can legally resell my wow account regardless of eula in my country.
    As I stated before, the legal decisions invalidating an EULA in various EU countries are fairly narrowly defined. No country has passed a law or had a court rule that all EULA's are invalid regardless of circumstances. They have all said that EULAs of certain types are not valid (i.e. you have no way to read the EULA before making a purchase and no way to receive a refund if you later do not agree to the terms). As a result, software companies such as Blizzard have implemented changes to their practices that, until successfully challenged, satisfy the court ruling's conditions for what is and is not a valid EULA. Thus the EULA remains enforceable. Be prepared to spend a lot of money if you want to try and argue that this is not true.

    Further, regardless of EULAs being valid in your country or not, international copyright law still applies. Blizzard could sue you for a violation of their copyright if you sold your account. Realistically, they would simply close the account.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  20. #140
    Brewmaster DieFichte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    Nope, country law >eula. Companys are forced to play by countrys rules, simply writing an eula doesnt change that.
    Because of that i can legally resell my wow account regardless of eula in my country.
    Yes you can, and Blizzard can't do anything about it, besides banning your account, and you can't do anything about that.

    And the only court ruling against Blizzard and their practices where the case was won (as far as I'm aware of) is only the "Refund for Diablo 3" in South Korea.
    Last edited by DieFichte; 2013-02-22 at 05:08 PM.

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