Testing the 100%crit for pvp.

[Bonkura]

I like how it's because my statements above favoring more skilled players to get full use of them. However I really don't like the randomness to it. I think they should change them so that "real proc" actually comes during that time frame so we don't get fucked by RNG or just caught with our pants down having no energy for chain procs.

[Deleted]

I mostly hate that DPS will be so much influenced by pure luck, depending of when the procs will pop : all together (niiiice), one every 30 sec (meh), back to back (beeeh), overwritten procs (kill meee)... Specs with very good pulls like Affliction will lose quite a lot I guess.

[villie]

Planning for me as destro atm allows me to make a dynamic decision when you want to burst, for instance my yulon has just procced and i have three embers up, but i can still see 3 secs left on the ICD of cosmos, so i wait knowing how long the window i have for those three chaos bolts are, if comos procs, bam three chaos bolts with both procs, if im really unlucky and it doesnt proc i'll begin to cast the bolts at the last possible point where i know all three will recieve the yulon buff, more that likely getting a cosmos proc and 2/3 double buffed. The difference is i make that decision on the basis of knowing when things will proc and the cast times of my highest DPE spells are to fit into this window, this decision is made on the fly whilst dpsing and maintaining and watching fight mechanics, therefore requires skill.

With the rppm system all of the above changes to, normal rotation, OH!!! i got a proc better cast some chaos bolts cause im not sure when my next proc will be, no planning just reaction, or indeed facerolling and hitting a button soon as u get a proc, al'a arms warrior!!

[Bonkura]

The difference is i make that decision on the basis of knowing when things will proc and the cast times of my highest DPE spells are to fit into this window, this decision is made on the fly whilst dpsing and maintaining and watching fight mechanics, therefore requires skill.

I repeat, the only difference is that you can't plan this and thus it's harder to be prepared for it or even react to it. If you disagree and will find excuses to your damage getting affected negatively it's your problem, I guess.

[Deleted]

Sorry but I can't agree with you on this topic Bonkura. It will be a net damage loss (compared to other "linear" specs) for the specs/players that were able to sync ressources & different buffs/timers with "old style" trinkets, simply because you can't plan on something that can happen anytime in a X minutes window.

On Live as Destro you can plan how you use your Embers, how many you can afford to use on proc P1, knowing that proc P2 is coming in X seconds and Dark Soul in Y seconds. If everything is totally random (which is basically the current RPPM implementation as far as I can tell... ), you can't make those decisions and it just comes down to luck.

And as someone else said earlier, when you get proc X, if you know that proc Y is coming in a few seconds you can hold on your Embers and use them with both procs up, this is clever play and it just isn't possible with RPPM procs.

[Bonkura]

I never said it won't be a damage loss. I'm just saying that playing with ICD's is easier because you know when everything will happen. The only luck to RPPM is the RNG from not having resources available, the proc not lining up with anything else or you simply not being able to get the damage where you want it to be. Reactive play is still harder than something you know when it will happen. But it doesn't mean you can't prepare for it either.

[Netherspark]

Because there is no planning. You smash your button because something just popped randomly, that's what RPPM is, faceroll.

That's the whole point of "chance on hit" effects. They were never meant to be something you can "plan" or predict, in fact in a way RPPM is a "fix" for something Blizzard never intended to happen.

[Deleted]

IMHO, rppm means that the gap will be smaller between players who would have been able to pool and predict future procs and those who couldn't, ie every player (good, average, or bad) now has the same set of information to base his reactions on, thus less disparity between good and bad players (except for RNG) and less whining etc etc. Plus, it makes spec balance easier on their side.

For once i understand/agree with their change, even if i don't really like it.

[Bonkura]

It's not a subjective topic. >_>

[villie]

Both points are valid dependent on what spec you are playing imo, destro favors planning ahead in advance and knowing what procs are coming and how many chaos bolts you can fit into this window. Say you have 4 embers thats 12s needed to dump them during procs (haste dependent) to have maximum procs up for that 12s duration requires a lot of future planning but achievable with the current ICD trinket system. With the RNG of the rppm you would have to be one lucky mofo for your trinkets to line up like that even once per encounter which is why it hurts the GoSac destro build so much since the spec revolves around lining up these cds and dumping super buffed chaos bolts into the boss. Not being able to achieve this effectively will be a major dps loss and devalue mastery so much that it could end up better to go haste and GoSup!

Affliction still requires good planning but this planning revolves around spending shards and shard generation, which unlike destro is more rng based with nighfall above 20% due to this the rppm system doesnt really have nearly as much impact since yes you wont be able to line up procs like above, but afflictions damage is dealt in small doses at a constant rate, no where near as spikey as destro, plus refreshing dots is only 1 global if using SS:SS and 3 if not. Compared to the 12 secs window needed to spend 4 embers afflictions dps will hardly change with the rppm system since at worst you only need ~4s of trinket overlap to benefit from both procs on all your dots and i think will get easier without the planning for icd and aff dots holding your hand.

I wont comment on Demo since not got enough MOP experience with the spec.

TL : DR Agree to disagree, rppm bad for destro, meh for affliction.

[Bonkura]

Sigh, I've realy tried to make you understand my point. I'm just going to give up now because I hate go back and repeating/rephrasing everything I've said.

[ZakAtack]

I don't really see how either system is very compelling. One waits for the buff to light up, the other waits for a timer to pop. It's not like you have control over the the ICDs anymore than the PPMs, you're still just waiting for the most buffs to proc and then hitting DS and bursting as hard as you can.

[villie]

Lol, i do understand your point mate, i just don't find it difficult to react to procs with WA setup in my ui with good resource management, for me the rppm system with be far easier since proc comes up and u spend resources. How many you spend is upto you and the luck component enters when you spend those resources and then 5s later get a better proc which you cannot plan for, yes you can hold back in lieu of the other proc happening but then u risk possible capping out so its just better to spend some and maybe save one or two if you haven't had one in a while. And im not saying you dont know how to play destro properly mate but have a go and you will understand where im coming from. It may well be harder to plan for these proc overlaps but as destro the rng required for trinket overlap for the time needed to burn 4 chaosbolts will probably happen once on a bluemoon and you could sit there waiting to react to it as you say for the whole fight and cripple your dps

[Bonkura]

No, you don't get it. Your entire post can be answered by something I have already said.

Using energy resources preemptively without being capped at said energy is a waste when it could be saved for your stronger procs/CD's. Worst case scenario by pooling energy you are spamming Shadowburn/ToC(/Soul Fire) at the very end of the fight or in Affli's case dumping soul shards into Haunt before the <20% execute.

REPHRASING: You are never wasting energy until you are capped and can't gain more of it. It won't disappear if you don't use it.

You might think this sucks and I agree. We will probably lose damage from this, HOWEVER it will take a good player to get the most out of the procs.

Look at it this way. You have same procs but no ICD timer. You've never even heard about ICD before. Will it be easier for you to do theoretically optimal DPS? Do you think the average raider, who does read forums and has his UI set up, will do the same DPS? If you think the answers to these questions are yes, then to each their own or something along that line. This might not be what you've been talking about but it's what I've been arguing against all the time.

[villie]

One flaw in your argument the rppm rng.

If i spend 4 embers on Proc1 (P1) and then get a stronger proc 2 (P2) when i could have waited without capping and spent the resources on P2 then yes i agree that is bad play.

But say i spend embers on P1 and regen those 4 embers then P2 goes off then that is a dps increase and not bad play.

The only difference between the two examples is RNG, ergo why its bad for destro.

But yes i agree now with you the average player may well find this system more difficult to optimize, however im not an average player

[Bonkura]

Both are bad play, since you're relying on the RNG. It's nothing I rarely want to do myself, but when I do it's part of a risk/reward strategy that I'm fully aware of might not work. I'm not sure what it has to do with anything I've said though since I haven't specified when to dump embers (or whatever energy resource you're using).

[Deleted]

What's in it not to love? It's Unstoppable Force + Windfury all over again!

[Scathbais]

Interesting information from Ghost Crawler on proc chances on Unerring Vision:

The proc frequency changes based on the ilvl of the trinket:

541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier

This counts for both Unerring Vision and Rune of Re-Origination.

[pokeadott]

He also said that Unerring and the Legendary metas will have a reduced chance to proc vs. players. For once they're doing something smart with pve shenanigan proc effects. Nice job Bliz! Was definitely planning on rocking both of those otherwise.

[Teye]

Bonkura, go back and read the first page, and tell me where anyone said it was going to be easier with PPM. The only thing anyone said is that its boring, and a bad play style. You're going on and on about how its harder. Harder =/= not boring. Please understand that no one is concerned with difficulty. We're talking about QoL here.

That said, I still don't think it will be harder. Just annoying. Someone made the comparison to an Arms Warrior, and after raiding as a Prot Warrior for two tiers with Arms as an Off Spec, I agree completely. We'll be reacting to RNG procs, which isn't fun for me at all, and isn't a good plays tyle.