ShadowCleave how to play?

[Deleted]

So in MoP i rolled DK for main and I'm looking to play ShadowCleave in 5.2 but have not really seen much of the comp so am curious as to how the comp is played and what the standard plays the comp uses for example do you train healers? hard swap etc? any info on how to play the comp or previous experiences of your own with or against the comp is hugely and greatly appreciated, Thanks!

[liljc711]

spread diseases/dots everywhereeeeeeeeeeee. that will be your constant pressure along with stuns/fears still letting dmg tick away health. swapping targets should be easy if dots rolling everywhere. build necrotics when possible. profit. rmp, opening burst potential, and double healer/dps, lack the burst needed, teams will give you the most trouble. fun comp to play though. dk prolly gonna be the one trained most of the time, so get ready to sit in blood pres.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 01:21 PM ----------

if just doing 2's. melee cleave gonna hurt. the lock wont be able to peel for the dk and he'll just drop once they start a cc chain on the lock.

[Natixsphere]

Pretty much wht they said! Most games won't be quick unless you get the jump on the other team with dot dmg from dk and the lock than pop CDs with stuns and what not on a target for a kill!! Good luck!!

[Snuggli]

It plays very much like RLS from last season (if that helps at all). The Lock kinda DoTs whatever he can, while the DK swaps to whatever is in range. He obviously wants to stop swaps and damage as much as he can but for the most part the roll of the DK is just to harass casters/healers with necrotics and grips and stuns.

The main part of Shadowcleave is good switching. Don't just switch aimlessly but at the same time don't stick to a target forever. You want to keep all 3 members of their on their toes because for most comps, all 3 will be viable targets. Both the DK and Lock need to be pretty vocal about who they are targeting and who they can hit, you should understand each others class so you know the general sort of pressure they can do by themselves so you know whether to let the lock solo someone and harass a healer etc.

Youtubed it and found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op6MwFTGoto

Don't know if it's any good, but it might be worth watching, it might have some good info in there. (It's for Cata though, so don't pay too much attention to it).

[Yvaelle]

I've played Shadowcleave before (and DK/Spriest/Rshaman, which is similar). The key to the comp is pressure - the name itself is a reference to Shadowplay which is the original unhealable pressure comp (Shadow/Affliction/Rshaman), victory is inexxorable but not usually fast.

Pressure comps like all the above generally don't do too well in seasons when massive burst comps are topping the charts - in 5.0 this was KFC / Bleedcleave / Fmage/Arms/Healer / God Comp. 5.0 also saw a surge of triple DPS comps again - which are also too high in early burst (triple DPS comps always pick front-loaded dps classes like rets). Pressure comps need time to operate, burst comps generally don't give them that opportunity to ramp-up - so it's a natural counter. Pressure comps usually excel when damage is mostly normalized and overall survivability is high - this puts an emphasis on high CC comps like RMP, RLS, MLS - which pressure comps respond well against. Because of all this, pressure comps excel late in expansions, and generally suck early on (when things are least balanced) - 5.2 may be too early and too bursty still for a pressure comp like Shadowcleave to excel: so that's my warning.

There is a big opportunity for Shadowcleave specifically in 5.2 however - Unholy DK buffs, and the Demon Armor buff is going to help locks in this comp a lot, since their survivability will be a lynchpin to the teams success. Your lock should be full resil gearing and ignoring pvp power, and your dk probably should be doing the same - once you survive the burst phase, no other comp (well, other pressure comps perhaps) is going to keep pace in damage - so gearing for damage is irrelevant: surviving until then is critical.

One of the weaknesses of pressure comps is often lack of peels for the other DPS - as Shadowcleave, if they lower the Asphyxiate cooldown to 30 seconds on live, I might be tempted to actually suggest taking it (though I'm sure people will flip out about that suggestion) - your lock will need that peel, and with only a 30 second cooldown you will almost always have it. Losing Strangulate for most comps would be devastating - but since pressure comps work very often by running the healer OOM, or giving them too much damage and not enough GCDs to respond to everyone dying simultaneously - while Strangulate can exacerbate that pressure - Asphyxiate can prevent deaths on your side: your victory is inexxorable so long as you all stay alive - Asphyxiate may help that more than even Death's Advance or Chillblains (unless you can't stay on target, in which case your pressure is absent).

For a healer, I'd highly recommend a resto druid - since cyclone doesn't wipe dots and doesn't break on dots/aoe (and doesn't DR with dk/locks) - it's by far the best CC of the healers, and CC is very useful again as a peel - as are roots for your lock. Further, rdruids can put out nice little chunks of damage if you are all topped off - which only adds more pressure - and they don't have mana problems in arenas - so they won't hold you back on the inexxorable win. In the past, rshaman mana was a big issue for Shadowplay - because if the rshaman went OOM, your inevitable victory wasn't so inevitable anymore. Rshaman was the best choice in the past because Rdruids were often non-functional, and because Rshaman 5 second wind shears were a big addition in effective pressure - both of those points aren't true now.

Lastly, and again this will probably also draw contention here on the pvp forums - but as a pressure comp, your ability both as a dk and a lock to maximize your pressure when you get the opportunity - will be a big deciding factor for you. It's only unhealable pressure if you know how to PvE it up - and even a lot of good PvP'rs aren't always good at maximizing DoT uptime on multiple targets and cycling debuffs/buffs/dps priorities. It's entirely possible to be a gladiator level PvP'r, without being able to PvE DPS like a heroic raider of the same class - it's a different skill set - but for any pressure comp, once you make it through the enemy teams burst, and everyones trading CC's and putting out damage and hoping for a window of opportunity - the most dangerous thing at that point isn't a multi-glad, it's a top end PvE'r.

TL;DR:
If you want to play a pressure comp well, two bits of advice:
1) Build your teams spec and gear entirely around survivability, not damage - if you survive the enemy teams cooldowns you are very likely to win.
2) Ask the best PvE'r of your spec on your server for help (no, seriously do it), 'pressure' in pvp terms, is 'DPS' in pve terms - and they know DPS/pressure inside out

[Deleted]

Thanks all for the awesome advice will definately put it all to good use and it is all very much appreciated, thank you all!

[Sevyvia]

Sorry for bumping an old-ish thread, but from what this thread is telling me, you can basically run ShadowCleave with any healer out of: Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin. Is that correct? Would one of those be seen as the superior healer compared to the others?

Resto Druid mana is quite good as long as they don't have to spam Regrowth, which I suppose would be a plus for a longevity comp as opposed to a more bursty one. But Paladin (Example), at least in my opinion, has far more survivability and needs less babysitting than a Resto Druid. Cyclone is great, but it stops dots doing damage, and I'm not sure DK/Warlock has enough peels when it comes down to it to help a Resto Druid. I might be wrong, though.

[Snuggli]

Resto Druid mana is quite good as long as they don't have to spam Regrowth, which I suppose would be a plus for a longevity comp as opposed to a more bursty one. But Paladin (Example), at least in my opinion, has far more survivability and needs less babysitting than a Resto Druid. Cyclone is great, but it stops dots doing damage, and I'm not sure DK/Warlock has enough peels when it comes down to it to help a Resto Druid. I might be wrong, though.

In previous expansions Druid was always the best. In Cata this changed to Rsham because Rdruid healing was pretty dog. In MoP, i'd say Druid and Shaman are about equal.

This is mainly because Druid CC doesn't break on damage (Hpala didn't have CC pre-MoP really). Clone is really good for the comp.

[Natixsphere]

Rshams or Druids will both be good! I personally like rshams better due to purges and better heals.

[Sevyvia]

I posted the same question on the EU PvP forum and was basically told that Resto Druid wasn't a good idea due to Necrotic Strike being very strong vs. hots and DKs getting a buff on damage next patch. Does that have anything on it, meaning that Shaman is still the best healer for it?

[Deleted]

I'm leaning a bit of going with h-pala for the reason that it really helps to let lock freecast more and DK to move more unhindered.

Cyclone is a fair trade off for that imo.

[Snuggli]

I posted the same question on the EU PvP forum and was basically told that Resto Druid wasn't a good idea due to Necrotic Strike being very strong vs. hots and DKs getting a buff on damage next patch. Does that have anything on it, meaning that Shaman is still the best healer for it?

Yeah good points, all 3 have their pros and cons... if anything it depends on what you're mostly facing and I don't know what the most popular comps in 5.2 will be. If anything Hpala is probably best at the moment because of the huge amounts of KFCs / Melee cleaves and both the DK and Lock would need bops. If in 5.2 spellcleaves make a comeback then Shaman will probably be best. If it's a mix of both, maybe Druid.

If you have a healer who can play all 3 classes, just make him play whatever he's most comfortable on imo.

[Sevyvia]

Healer is me, and I have Paladin, Shaman and Druid at 90. Thing is, I don't like Resto Shaman much, but I'm comfortable with Druid and like Paladin okay. Think I'm going to give Paladin a spin. Thanks for the replies.

[GodTier]

Healer is me, and I have Paladin, Shaman and Druid at 90. Thing is, I don't like Resto Shaman much, but I'm comfortable with Druid and like Paladin okay. Think I'm going to give Paladin a spin. Thanks for the replies.

Shaman since s7 have been one of the strongest healers in the game and in s10/11 they were indeed the strongest.

I'd highly suggest putting the effort to learn the class. For this next upcoming season shaman will be great in many comps and Scleave will be better with a shaman than a paladin for sure.

Both hpal and shaman will work fine, the CC from shaman and the ability to clean targets can help for kills more so than a blind for extra CC. The ranged interrupt is invaluable IMO for pressure comps.

[Sevyvia]

Yeah, I realised a while ago that Shaman would be a good idea, but I don't have a razer naga and there are just too many binds, and that's without any focus + arena1/2/3 macros which I'd need. I have 34 abilities/cooldowns/macros bound for my Shaman's BG needs and that's all the buttons I really have. At best, I could free up 2 more buttons to use with alt as a mod, but 4 more buttons wouldn't be enough even for purge and wind shock macros.

So basically, while I could get used to Shaman healing, there are too many abilities. That's honestly a big part of why I prefer Paladin/Druid.

[Nicola]

Shaman since s7 have been one of the strongest healers in the game and in s10/11 they were indeed the strongest.

I'd highly suggest putting the effort to learn the class. For this next upcoming season shaman will be great in many comps and Scleave will be better with a shaman than a paladin for sure.

Both hpal and shaman will work fine, the CC from shaman and the ability to clean targets can help for kills more so than a blind for extra CC. The ranged interrupt is invaluable IMO for pressure comps.

Honestly, I'd say both resto druids and holy paladins are way better for shadowcleave. While a ranged interrupt is a nice thing, warlocks are so incredibly squishy against melee you just gonna need everything to keep them safe.

Druids have the bonus of having cyclone - which is one of the strongest cc spells- , roots, vortex and of course a knock back which gives a huge advantage on some maps.
Paladins on the other hand offer HoP so both the warlock and death knight can survive burst, freedom and of course aura mastery which affliction really needs to put out it's damage.

While resto shamans are very good healers as well, it's not the kind of healer you really want when facing melee cleaves. They just lack the tools to keep squishier classes alive against melee cleaves. Shamans are more of a thing you want to use against casters...

[Lulbalance]

Honestly, I'd say both resto druids and holy paladins are way better for shadowcleave. While a ranged interrupt is a nice thing, warlocks are so incredibly squishy against melee you just gonna need everything to keep them safe.

Druids have the bonus of having cyclone - which is one of the strongest cc spells- , roots, vortex and of course a knock back which gives a huge advantage on some maps.
Paladins on the other hand offer HoP so both the warlock and death knight can survive burst, freedom and of course aura mastery which affliction really needs to put out it's damage.

While resto shamans are very good healers as well, it's not the kind of healer you really want when facing melee cleaves. They just lack the tools to keep squishier classes alive against melee cleaves. Shamans are more of a thing you want to use against casters...

hey remember when you said no decent rogues are going to spec C&D? sorry i just made a post before this that reminded me of how crazy that was.. lol. <3

i think you should further explain why 2 classes without offensive dispels are better for running dot comps wit [and one without a spriest for god's sake] ^.-

cyclones .. 0 dot dmg is always better than cc that doesnt break with dot dmg hmm?.

roots.. pretty useful when your lock is rolling dots and they break with one tick..

... pally instead of a shammy..like wtf lol. i used to like you Nib! what happened to us?!

shammies are fine against melee as long as the melee doesnt train HIM.. because that negates one of his majors and its just too much pressure without decent peels. problem is with this case - shadowcleave has amazing peels.

i still love u beb. we're not over.

[Yvaelle]

I agree that HoP and Aura Mastery are big lures for Hpallies in the comp, but I honestly doubt you're going to enjoy it. Either your DK and Lock are going to need to throttle their damage to prevent instantly breaking all your CCs (in which case your putting the Pressure of the pressure comp in jeopardy), or none of the Hpallies CCs are going to be effective. The druid by contrast is 100% effective at CC even while everyone is dotted (cyclones, roots, knockbacks, stuns, vortex). If you compare Hpally advantages - minus their CC - to Rdruid advantages with their CC - Rdruids win by a mile IMO (despite that Hpallies are for most comps the stronger healer right now).

Also, maybe they reverted it - but aren't they making Blinding Light a cast time in 5.2? Also I think rdruids are generally being buffed in 5.2 (their healing anyways, Dbeast is getting nerfed).

[Nicola]

hey remember when you said no decent rogues are going to spec C&D? sorry i just made a post before this that reminded me of how crazy that was.. lol. <3

i think you should further explain why 2 classes without offensive dispels are better for running dot comps wit [and one without a spriest for god's sake] ^.-

cyclones .. 0 dot dmg is always better than cc that doesnt break with dot dmg hmm?.

roots.. pretty useful when your lock is rolling dots and they break with one tick..

... pally instead of a shammy..like wtf lol. i used to like you Nib! what happened to us?!

shammies are fine against melee as long as the melee doesnt train HIM.. because that negates one of his majors and its just too much pressure without decent peels. problem is with this case - shadowcleave has amazing peels.

i still love u beb. we're not over.

Hehe <3

In all honestly, I'd go with a shadowpriest instead of a lock, but hey, I guess some people will make it work with a lock as well.
As for dispels, I'm not too sure about death knights but I think they can dispel with icy touch if they glyph it, and warlocks have their felhunter/observer to dispel. Of course it's less effective then say purge or a spriest dispelling, but it's something.

As for cyclone, sure the cycloned target won't be taking damage, however, he won't be taking healing at all. Not to forget it's a cc that can't just be dispelled. If you manage to get the other team low enough and you land a full cyclone on the healer, in most cases it's over. And while damage is one thing, you also need control. For warlocks it's going to be harder then ever to get fears rolling so having a partner with strong cc will help a lot.
Not to forget that during cyclone your death knight can happily build up a necrotic strike stack.

Roots, well yeah, usually it's not going to last that long, but getting kills/killed is usually a matter of seconds so it helps.

And I'm not saying shamans are bad, they are very good, really. The deal is that warlocks and death knights are way to squishy against melee and sadly enough, most comps you'll meet will be melee cleaves. You just gonna need that HoP so they can survive, freedom will help both a lot and the warlock really needs the aura mastery. Since MoP warlocks, especially affliction, rely so much on hard casting that it's just necessary.
Now if this was more of a wizard dominated season, I'd certainly go with a shaman, it's just not the case.

Shadowcleave will work with shamans, I just think resto druids and holy paladins are better for the job for the upcoming season.

[Sevyvia]

So.. I could run:

Healer: RDruid/HPala/RSham
DPS: UH DK
DPS: AffLock/SPriest?

SPriest less squishy and adds to the offensive dispel of the DK (With glyph) while I bring hands and stronger burst healing than RDruid to the table as a Paladin at the expense of any other CC (realistically) than a stun?

I apologise if I'm asking obvious/dumb questions, I just want to get an idea of who I should try to find for 5.2.