1. #1

    Getting really weird stat weights for my Enh character

    Hi

    So I've been trying to figure out my Enh alt, it's gearing up to be an option for 5.2 heroic progress and I'm making sure I'm getting the hang of stats and all that good stuff.

    Read a lot of info online, most of it seem to suggest Mastery => Haste > Crit, some cases Mastery just flat out better than Haste.


    Problem is when I sim my own character, I get Haste as the vastly better stat. I also sim Strength higher than any secondary stat - suggesting Str enchant on gloves for example would be better than Mastery.

    I figured, alright I'll set up my character for a Haste build, so I did. Relogged / update armory, import to SimC, re-run the stat weights.

    This time I get: Mastery > Crit > Haste.


    ...


    Re-do with the character in a Mastery build. Sure enough: Haste > Crit > Mastery.


    SimC is set to run Patchwerk scenario, fight length ~450 seconds, etc etc it's set up correctly, take my word for it. 50'000 iterations, i.e. more than enough to take out the randomness.


    What's going on? There shouldn't be any haste breakpoints in the 2800-5600 range (that's how big I can swing the stats around through reforging), or at all for that matter, should there? I'm really confused by this, and moreover, I'm really frustrated I can't find any straight proof that one is the correct way to go. I find it hard to believe that I'm somehow supposed to balance the two around some arbitrary ratio or number.


    Anyone able to explain what's going on here?




    For reference my character is here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Alhov/advanced

    Though I don't see how it's really relevant, what concerns me is the weird indecisive SimCraft behaviour. If I'm reforged for Haste, it tells me Mastery is better. If I'm reforged for Mastery, it tells me Haste is better.

    I expected my own personal stat weights to be different from the BiS-oriented ones cited on guides etc, which is why I sim my own, but yeah in this case it's not really helping...
    Last edited by Mythricia; 2013-02-22 at 02:29 AM.
    I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like more than half of you more than you deserve.

  2. #2
    Secondary stats synergize with each other. If you stack one to the exclusion of others, the neglected stat(s) will have relatively more weight.

    Basically, stat weights aren't good for reforging, because the act of subtracting stat A will devalue stats B and C (and adding to stats B or C will improve the value of stat A). Use reforge plots, instead, with 2 stats at a time (e.g. haste+mastery), unless you want to export the data to a spreadsheet program that has 3D graphing functionality.

  3. #3
    I actually tried the reforge plot as well, although maybe not with enough iterations (takes ages) or plot points, but they seemed to show the same weirdo trend. Whichever version of my character I'm basing it on, it'll suggest that the 'other' stat is better to reforge to.

    Or maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly how to use the reforge plotting and / or it's results.
    I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like more than half of you more than you deserve.

  4. #4
    The same thing happens to me, the best thing you can do is common sense. Haste loses value as soon as you move. So for low movement fight, try to get a bit more haste, for alot of movement get pure mastery (which also make ascendance hit like a truck i might add).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Secondary stats synergize with each other. If you stack one to the exclusion of others, the neglected stat(s) will have relatively more weight.

    Basically, stat weights aren't good for reforging, because the act of subtracting stat A will devalue stats B and C (and adding to stats B or C will improve the value of stat A). Use reforge plots, instead, with 2 stats at a time (e.g. haste+mastery), unless you want to export the data to a spreadsheet program that has 3D graphing functionality.
    So, how do you actually use reforge plots? If I run them in SimC, will the program tell me what percentages I need to hit, in order to arrive at a theoretical sweet spot?

    For example, If I run a mastery vs. haste vs. crit cross-check, based on a "light-movement" fight, will it tell me that my sweet spots are, for the amounts of secondary stats I should target, with a given set of gear?

    Because, I'm concerned about the same thing. If I get stat weights of Mastery = 1.71, Haste = 1.65, and Crit = 1.43, then it seems that, mathematically, I should put 36% worth of my secondary stats into mastery, 34% worth into haste, and 30% worth, into crit, as those are the relative ratios, for those stat weights. But, it seems that the reforge tools all look at Mastery's 1.71 rating, and tell me to dump as much into mastery (after the hit/exp) caps, as possible.

  6. #6
    The thing is, and this is as far as I undertand this stat weight matter regarding enhancement, the moment you start favoring one stat the others start gaining value. Funny isnt it?

    For now (until 5.2 hits that is) just try to take as much haste and mastery as you can. Remember that capping Exp and Hit is top priority and when needed reforge out of crit first then move on to the others if required. The reason I tend to leave crit as last its because we get plenty of crit out of agility, buffs and SS so you can make due with less of it. Mastery and haste are different and you want as much of them as possible.

    Thats the beauty of the spec right now, theres no "bad" gear for us. It becomes a bit of a chore to reforge and regem "perfectly" but chances are if you are progression minded and really into min/max-ing, then you shouldnt mind doing the extra work.

    Thats the basics of secondary stat weights for the spec, again, as far as I managed to understand them.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 07:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingchoi View Post
    The same thing happens to me, the best thing you can do is common sense. Haste loses value as soon as you move. So for low movement fight, try to get a bit more haste, for alot of movement get pure mastery (which also make ascendance hit like a truck i might add).
    So you reforge before every fight?

    It is true that if you are facing a boss with lots of mobility mastery wins and with little movement haste wins, but thats just theory. You wont go back and forth to reforge for every fight. You either go for one, the other or a middle point. I went for the middle ground of "as much haste and mastery as I can".

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    So you reforge before every fight?

    It is true that if you are facing a boss with lots of mobility mastery wins and with little movement haste wins, but thats just theory. You wont go back and forth to reforge for every fight. You either go for one, the other or a middle point. I went for the middle ground of "as much haste and mastery as I can".
    Not enhancement, but decided to chime in.
    Why not reforge for every fight by the way? If a boss you are progressing on will take you more than 30 minutes - your entire raid will benefit drastically from taking 10 minutes to think about encounter specific optimisation relating to glyphs/talents/reforges and not just doing it after the kill and that will save you a considerable amount of time in the long run.

    Good examples this tier would obviously be something like spirit kings (mastery) vs garajal (haste and no need for movement speed on boots), vizier vs garalon, etc.
    Last edited by Blindlad; 2013-02-23 at 04:27 PM.
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Higgs/advanced

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Not enhancement, but decided to chime in.
    Why not reforge for every fight by the way? If a boss you are progressing on will take you more than 30 minutes - your entire raid will benefit drastically from taking 10 minutes to think about encounter specific optimisation relating to glyphs/talents/reforges and not just doing it after the kill and that will save you a considerable amount of time in the long run.

    Good examples this tier would obviously be something like spirit kings (mastery) vs garajal (haste and no need for movement speed on boots), vizier vs garalon, etc.
    By all means, if you feel like it, do so. I'm of the mind that, if you are a progression minded player this is the sort of thing you are supposed to be in favor of.

    Now, for the remaining 95-99 % of us all this talk of stat isn't so important and I don't really see myself going back after beating a boss to reforge back out of all the haste or mastery... sounds like too much trouble for what you get out of it though.

    Now the new glyph and talent system is made for this sort of optimization and for what its worth I do try and change glyphs when needed.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythricia View Post
    Problem is when I sim my own character, I get Haste as the vastly better stat. I also sim Strength higher than any secondary stat - suggesting Str enchant on gloves for example would be better than Mastery.
    I figured, alright I'll set up my character for a Haste build, so I did. Relogged / update armory, import to SimC, re-run the stat weights.
    This time I get: Mastery > Crit > Haste
    Re-do with the character in a Mastery build. Sure enough: Haste > Crit > Mastery.
    The one thing that messes people up with simcraft and stat weights, is the meaning of said weights.

    The weights are the amount of dps you would get to ADD a point of that stat. Once you start taking away stats like mastery the whole calculation is changed. So @ 10k mastery, haste has X value. But at 5k mastery that value is MUCH less. The people telling you about the reforging graph are accurate. This will show you that haste and mastery continually gain value over each other as you add more secondary stats to the mix.

    My enhance (496) had about 10500 mastery and haste became significantly higher weighted than mastery. So as opposed to the eternity waiting on reforge plots, i just backed down on mastery into haste slowly. I'm now sitting at about 8800 mastery and 4400 haste.

    I'm sure once 5.2 gets here, and I take ancestral swiftness haste's value will increase ~10%.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-24 at 12:44 AM ----------

    And also.. sim for light movement. This will give you more realistic stat weights for your character.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    By all means, if you feel like it, do so. I'm of the mind that, if you are a progression minded player this is the sort of thing you are supposed to be in favor of.

    Now, for the remaining 95-99 % of us all this talk of stat isn't so important and I don't really see myself going back after beating a boss to reforge back out of all the haste or mastery... sounds like too much trouble for what you get out of it though.

    Now the new glyph and talent system is made for this sort of optimization and for what its worth I do try and change glyphs when needed.
    I'm not in a super hardcore guild, but when we were doing heroics in blues, you bet your ass we'd take a few minutes to go outside and reforge/regem when needed. If you're raiding normals for the entire tier, then sure, whatever, it doesn't matter. If you're only entering heroics right now, then you probably don't need it.

    Why not take 5 minutes to maximize dps/healing? Those 5% wipes due to shitty gear can really suck, and some reforging/gemming can definitely make a difference.

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