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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
    Garrosh is a pissed off orc who is mad because his people are stuck in a desert, not thriving, and dependent on Alliance resources. Garrosh wants the Horde to unite and conquer Azeroth from the Alliance and carve up a thriving empire for his people. Basically, he expects the whole Horde to fall in line and follow him, say as a return for all that the orcs did for the Horde i.e. fighting their wars and helping them secure their nations. Problem is, none of the other Horde leaders believe in him nor his vision of a Horde dominated Azeroth. You have people like Baine and Vol'jin who have been undermining his vision and leadership at every turn. And those that are most active in his mission are disingenuous about their loyalties and do so reluctantly like Sylvanas. Gallywix is only as loyal as long it profits him. And Lor'themar well Garrosh was just stupid in using his people as meat shields. Garrosh is abrasive and reckless with those he is strongarming to follow him which festers resentment and discontent. Only the orcs are completely 100% with him because they believe in his mission but because Garrosh will stop at nothing for victory, I wonder how long even that popular support will last when the consequences of his recklessness start effecting the homeland.
    I wonder if WoW was real in 200 years if they would see him as almost a god, like Julius Caesar and Rome.
    "I hated hating Garrosh before it was cool."
    FOR THE HORDE!!!

  2. #102
    Why is Garrosh so unusually aggressive now?

    Because he feels inadequate of Thrall's balls! They're everywhere!
    Last edited by Briga; 2013-02-22 at 04:52 PM.

  3. #103
    World of Warcraft is merely a setback...

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by dsmania View Post
    this. sha corruption my friend

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Why can't someone be aggressive, brave, and daring in diplomacy? Why's it gotta be an axe?
    this is warcraft not game of thrones. the opening cinematic was an orc trying to kill a night elf with an axe, its the foundation of warcraft, that orcs kill shit.
    Im actually not funny, im just really mean and people think im joking.

  5. #105
    Garrosh is NOT being unnusually aggressive. Did you not pay attention to the character in Wrath and Cata? He's been highly aggressive since 3.0 and hasn't let up since. Sure, he has a couple of 'honorable' moments like in stonetalon but he's never been shown to NOT be aggressive. There is no need to blame this on sha corruption or anything, it's just the progression of his character as he's corrupted by nothing but his own pride and power.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Because Blizz's been pretty schizophrenic in handling his characterization.
    Exactly.

    Also, remember that probably Garrosh is being corrupted by the Sha. I hope he does not die: we can save him, redeeming himself in the end...


  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    I just did some of the Landing quests, and noticed while at first, Garrosh seemed pretty cool, when he assisted the Goblins, and they express their thanks, he literally goes on to say he came to save the supplies the Goblins were working on, and even mocks them. Then he threatens them to get to work, by bringing Orcs to make sure of it. Then later, he excessively mocks Vol'jin for no reason at all, and when Vol'jin questions what his motives are, he orders his assassination. I mean wtf, he didn't even do anything.

    But when you look at Cataclysm, he had almost none of these traits, and was at least honorable.
    Have you followed anything that has happened in relationship to emotions and the sha? Emotions get amplified because of the sha. Garrosh has always been a violent and angry dude. As a result, his emotions are amplified and his actions are becoming more reckless. It makes perfect sense. He was not really honorable. He has his own code and will follow that. He slaughtered innocent NE sentinels guarding resources that were not Horde because he felt the peace treaty was harming the Horde. He slaughtered innocent Alliance sailors when the Cataclysm threw their ship into Horde waters even though they had no means to attack and were looking for help. This man is not honorable in a good way.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 06:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Exactly.

    Also, remember that probably Garrosh is being corrupted by the Sha. I hope he does not die: we can save him, redeeming himself in the end...
    It is not corruption. Blizz has already said he is not being corrupted or controlled. His behavior is being amplified by the sha.

  8. #108
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Never claimed he was diplomatic or merciful.

    There's a difference between not liking the Alliance and being willing to kill your own if they question you.
    Garrosh has been an aggressive sociopath ever since Borean Tundra. Stonetalon remains the exception, not the rule--it's just that ever since Malkorok began removing elements that disagreed with Garrosh's policies from Orgrimmar, he's been surrounded by an echo chamber of sycophants with the occasional rude interruption from one of the other leaders, something he takes decreasingly well throughout his reign. All that's happened is now he's so far gone that he considers disagreeing with him treason and grounds for assassination--and who knows how much of that was put there by Malkorok, or is the result of Sha ramping his emotional response (which has always been strong bordering on extreme) up to eleven?

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    I just did some of the Landing quests, and noticed while at first, Garrosh seemed pretty cool, when he assisted the Goblins, and they express their thanks, he literally goes on to say he came to save the supplies the Goblins were working on, and even mocks them. Then he threatens them to get to work, by bringing Orcs to make sure of it. Then later, he excessively mocks Vol'jin for no reason at all, and when Vol'jin questions what his motives are, he orders his assassination. I mean wtf, he didn't even do anything.

    But when you look at Cataclysm, he had almost none of these traits, and was at least honorable.
    The only time he was honorable was in Stonetalon.

    He talks about honor but he almost never carried out.
    For example, when he was returning from Northrend, he attacked an Alliance boat that was caught by a hurricane and was sinking, even when Cairne tells him its not honorable to do so.

    In Ashenvale, he uses Magnataur to fight the Alliance, even when he knows its not honorable to do so.

    In Gilneas, he uses the Forsaken as dead meat sending them to mindlessly attack the fortified Gilneas Gates untill Sylvanna's stops him.

    In the very same Theramore, he uses a mass destruction bomb (which is the same reason why he killed the captain in stonetalon) to destroy it.

    Garrosh only cares about honor when being honorable doesnt stop him from killing someone. As soon as honor would stop him from some killing, he spits on them, and always has.

    Way before MoP Blizzard themselves said that all what garrosh want is to "kill, kill and kill".

    He always was, is and will be an idiot skilled Grunt that was put in charge by mistake.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-02-22 at 06:56 PM.

  10. #110
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Garrosh has been an aggressive sociopath ever since Borean Tundra. Stonetalon remains the exception, not the rule--it's just that ever since Malkorok began removing elements that disagreed with Garrosh's policies from Orgrimmar, he's been surrounded by an echo chamber of sycophants with the occasional rude interruption from one of the other leaders, something he takes decreasingly well throughout his reign. All that's happened is now he's so far gone that he considers disagreeing with him treason and grounds for assassination--and who knows how much of that was put there by Malkorok, or is the result of Sha ramping his emotional response (which has always been strong bordering on extreme) up to eleven?
    Yeah Garrosh was never meant to be in power, the sad thing is he didn't want to become warchief because he himself was afraid he would screw up. I know Thrall had little choice to appoint some one else at the time, but he should have given Cairne's warning at least a second thought, instead of telling him deal with it.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    Stonetalon was a 'school' with druids with little to no military value, Theramore was a major military target used to supply and bring in troops and was also damn close to the hordes capital city and other strongholds.
    I can't buy this explanation, because in Stonetalon Garrosh said "honor".
    Honor is not something dependent on size or military aptitude of your target. It is about fighting to the full extent of your abilities and allowing your opponent to do the same. Garrosh would have no trouble with Krom'Gar if he simply attacked the "school" with his ground forces and won fair and square.
    Honor is also not something you do halfway. You either follow it consistently, or you pretend to follow it to fool others (and possibly yourself) into letting you get away with various crap. And the simple truth of the matter is that Garrosh is simply not wired for pretend play.

    If Krom'gar earned execution simply by disobeying orders of Garrosh, then there would be no need to bring up honor at all. "I sent you to claim this land, you laid waste to it" would already be reason enough to drop him off the cliff.
    However, Garrosh brings up honor. That means Krom'Gar messed up twice. Once by failing to carry out an order. And once by failing to follow the code of honor.
    What's more, Garrosh doesn't bring up just any kind of honor. He brings up Saurfang's version of honor, which says that you stick to it even in most dire of battles.
    And i can't treat Stonetalon as "exception", either. Garrosh broke his stupor in Outland only by learning that his father restored his honor. This is obviously an important concept to him.

    Now, how does bombing Theramore fit into Saurfang's concept of honor that Garrosh seems to stand by in Stonetalon? It plain and simple doesn't. Somewhere between Stonetalon and Theramore Garrosh decided that it's okay to forsake honor, if that makes the battle easier. Somewhere between Stonetalon and Theramore, Garrosh decided that he doesn't need to stick to honor even in most dire of battles. Somewhere between Stonetalon and Theramore, Garrosh forgot the lessons of his father's fate and reverted back to pretty much how he was in Nagrand. Only now empowered.

    I am not aware of any lore sources that tell us why it happened.

    I can only speculate that the as of yet unrevealed events that resulted in Blackrock orc becoming the leader of Horde's equivalent of Royal Guard left Garrosh either really scared of something, or cornered him in some other way. Which is consistent with his frantic search of radically new sources of power in Pandaria.
    Last edited by MMOmaxi; 2013-02-22 at 10:20 PM.

  12. #112
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Thing is though, we also have 'true orcs' like Kilrogg, Jorin, Geyah, Orgrim, they understood the nuances that Garrosh seems to ignore 'because' and we have a bunch of mag'har that act like green orcs so what a 'true orc' is, keeps getting blurred.
    Well, they were aggressive from the very start, they had the potential - that's why Burning Legion chose them as a weapon against Azeroth, on which Legion once failed. It wasn't the fel magic that was the true, subtle gift of the Legion - it was the culture of warfare from which there is no turning back for orcs, because it fits them so good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    He doesn't succeed. Why do people think this? He hasn't succeeded in anything... unless his mission was to destroy the Horde and really really piss off the Alliance to the point where only utter annihilation is an acceptable term of surrender. Other leaders are aggressive, brave and daring, but they also know diplomacy. Garrosh is a thug with an axe, the kind that meets his end with his head being removed from his body by someone stronger, of which there are many, hence his desperation in acquiring things like weaponised Sha and MOgu tech.
    In Cataclysm, he did succeed in much. All of Horde's advances are to be attributed to him since Thralll left. In fact, you should face it that Vol'jin and Baine are simply pulling Horde into some other directions with zero productivity, which results in merely holding it back. And he doesn't have the patience to reason with them - just taking them out seems a faster, simpler and more effective solution. In which way are other leaders in WoW as daring? Well, Tyrande is, but we know how it ends. Vol'jin? Through all the years he merely had the guts and initiative to quarrel with Garrosh two times and then fend off assassins. I don't see trolls particularly inspirated by his example, while Garrosh has quite a lot of passionately loyal followers. Wrynn? He's apparently now perfect in everything, so I doubt it even counts. He made sense in Cata when he at least had issues, downsides. The thing is that Garrosh changed things after Thrall's stagnation. And it's not desperation, it's common sense. Characters like Wrynn get their superpowers like a free bonus because they're so awesome, while normal characters have to, you know, work for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Why can't someone be aggressive, brave, and daring in diplomacy? Why's it gotta be an axe?
    An orc without an axe is like alcohol-free beer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Because Blizz dun goofed.

    They had Thrall point to Garrosh repeatedly and go 'this is an orcs orcs orc!' in their attempt to cater to people who wanted WC2 type stuff only they utterly failed to provide any of the -intelligence- the Horde had in WC2, the brutal cunning that made Orgrim popular.

    Only they just made Garrosh -worse- in their attempts to make him better and so they finally hashed it and decided to off him.
    I agree with everything here. You're insightful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dahorst View Post
    Which true orc are you talking about, the shamanistic race before or the "fucking shit up" race after the burning legion messed with them?
    The Legion wouldn't have messed with them if they didn't have that potential. They annihilated countless worlds and races, and only a few of these deserved to be the weapons of the Legion.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    That's ironic, because it's absolutely wrong.

    His development and the basis of his personality are actually pretty high quality. He's a complicated person. If you only focus on what he does instead of why then absolutely he looks badly made, but that's like saying because something's painted green that it's green throughout.

    I'm willing to bet that a character you would make wouldn't even be half as good as Garrosh.
    You can check this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Haven's "Better way to do Garrosh than Blizz method"
    - and give your estimate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 02:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kingriku View Post
    I wonder if WoW was real in 200 years if they would see him as almost a god, like Julius Caesar and Rome.
    Actually, a very good point. Cause if you look at history, Caesar conquered a lot of lands and murdered a shitload of people for opposing or even thinking of opposing him. But in the end, he's really a pillar of world history, the kind of man that I admire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  13. #113
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Developing of his personality and building him up as a bad guy, I guess.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Actually, a very good point. Cause if you look at history, Caesar conquered a lot of lands and murdered a shitload of people for opposing or even thinking of opposing him. But in the end, he's really a pillar of world history, the kind of man that I admire.
    The other faction leaders remind me of senators, i really expect a you too Thrall moment at the end.
    "I hated hating Garrosh before it was cool."
    FOR THE HORDE!!!

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Siluz View Post
    this. sha corruption my friend
    Yeah, Garrosh was totally cool and friendly in WOTLK and Cata, it was only when MOP rolled around that he started being all ang- oh wait.

  16. #116
    Garrosh has Daddy issues, hulk smash.

  17. #117
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Just for people still saying 'the sha made him do it', incase you've had tape over your ears and eyes since mists has been released, the sha is something that is empowered and drawn to states of its own energy, meaning if something is already angry and aggressive, then the sha of anger would see that as a meal ticket. It doesn't just walk along and say 'I'm going to make you angry, because you totally wasn't before', it makes what emotional states are already there more powerful.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    In Cataclysm, he did succeed in much. All of Horde's advances are to be attributed to him since Thralll left. In fact, you should face it that Vol'jin and Baine are simply pulling Horde into some other directions with zero productivity, which results in merely holding it back.
    Once more, since no one seems to get it, he didn't make any gains. He didn't take Ashenvale, he lost the Warsong Lumbercamp, he didn't clear anyone out of the Barrens, he didn't take Stonetalon, his forces just blew up a school, Gilneas wasn't taken, Northwatch is stronger than ever as of ToW and his best chances for victory failed miserably. His gains are minimal and were at HUGE cost to his own people.

    And he doesn't have the patience to reason with them - just taking them out seems a faster, simpler and more effective solution.
    ya, if they just rolled over and died sure. He's not strong enough to force them into his way, why do you think he's going after more and more outrageous things to gain the edge? He can't win conventionally, so he drinks the metaphorical demon blood, just like his worthless father.

    In which way are other leaders in WoW as daring? Well, Tyrande is, but we know how it ends.
    Can thank Kosak for that massive fuck up. But he only gives a shit about Forsaken lore so naturally he isn't worth a crap to write Night Elf lore or even attempting to write it in a way that doesn't come off as pathetic.

    Vol'jin? Through all the years he merely had the guts and initiative to quarrel with Garrosh two times and then fend off assassins. I don't see trolls particularly inspirated by his example, while Garrosh has quite a lot of passionately loyal followers.
    Where are you seeing the loyal troll followers? Vol'jin isn't in your face, he can't afford to be.

    Wrynn? He's apparently now perfect in everything, so I doubt it even counts. He made sense in Cata when he at least had issues, downsides.
    He tempers his boldness with wisdom, something good leaders do.

    The thing is that Garrosh changed things after Thrall's stagnation. And it's not desperation, it's common sense. Characters like Wrynn get their superpowers like a free bonus because they're so awesome, while normal characters have to, you know, work for it.
    Garrosh didn't work on anything. He went from miserable whelp to Super Warrior with a pep talk from Thrall. He sacrificed nothing, he never endured any real hardship. The most suffering he had in his life was being laughed at by the other orcs for throwing up like a miserable wretch. Suddenly he's a military genius and unparalleled in battle. Varian earned his at any rate.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You can check this:- and give your estimate.
    I was mostly okay with it until the second paragraph in Northrend.

    You've painted a bit of a hypocrisy with garrosh, and not a good one. He becomes a man who seems to believe "force can solve all the problems." You paint him as a character who is relatively similar to who he was in canon lore, and yet he doesn't kill off a guy who obviously has it out for him? Because of a friendship even you say has diminished or is even gone? He's reckless, and yet with little experience in battle, he has the cunning necessary to win battles? That's very contradictory.

    Then bringing in Saurfang Junior into the mix and telling him that defeating the Lich King would be what would rid the Horde of Garrosh's influence? He was a smart boy. He wouldn't have fallen for something like that. You have to re-write a character in order for a concept of yours to work, and that's not good.

    I don't see any failures. I don't see any struggles. I see a character who only succeeds (against all odds, none the less) and whos only real flaw was his dislike of his dad., which wasn't even referenced after the TBC arc. I would not call that better than what Blizzard did. Not even half as good. Call me harsh, but I've done this so many times (critiquing character stories), and to be truthful people saying that they can write better than a professional writer is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-02-23 at 04:50 AM.

  20. #120
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I was mostly okay with it until the second paragraph in Northrend.

    You've painted a bit of a hypocrisy with garrosh, and not a good one. He becomes a man who seems to believe "force can solve all the problems." You paint him as a character who is relatively similar to who he was in canon lore, and yet he doesn't kill off a guy who obviously has it out for him? Because of a friendship even you say has diminished or is even gone? He's reckless, and yet with little experience in battle, he has the cunning necessary to win battles? That's very contradictory.
    One of the reasons he would not rush into killing Jorin is doubt. And the reason he would succeed in battles - talent, just talent and practice of leading the Mag'har against ogres in Garadar.
    Then bringing in Saurfang Junior into the mix and telling him that defeating the Lich King would be what would rid the Horde of Garrosh's influence? He was a smart boy. He wouldn't have fallen for something like that. You have to re-write a character in order for a concept of yours to work, and that's not good.
    We know very little of him actually. I tried to mix in a flaw into a flawless character, a genuine care for the future of the Horde that would evolve into fear that Garrosh takes over and envy to him almost effortlessly winning the hearts of his army. Jorin's instigation push him into a reckless act, something that's not his element.
    I don't see any failures. I don't see any struggles. I see a character who only succeeds (against all odds, none the less) and whos only real flaw was his dislike of his dad., which wasn't even referenced after the TBC arc. I would not call that better than what Blizzard did. Not even half as good. Call me harsh, but I've done this so many times (critiquing character stories), and to be truthful people saying that they can write better than a professional writer is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
    It's fine. I like criticism when it's constructive. This shows that I didn't quite make visible the point I wanted to make. I wanted to add some intrigue and movement to forgotten and wasted characters. The main struggles he was supposed to have would be trusting Jorin, first when he started using fel magics in Nagrand, then after learning about his machinations in Wrath, and ultimately when Jorin betrays him in Cataclysm. The last one is supposed to be hard, he wouldn't believe the evidence until it flies in his face. In canon he didn't have any struggles either - he's supposed to be questioning himself belonging to these people he was appointed to lead. Well, it took me about 15-20 minutes to come up with it, I believe I could do better if I was paid for it. Besides, were there any losses, failures and struggles in canon version?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

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