Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
  1. #121

  2. #122
    High Overlord BalwickZaik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    177
    Quote Originally Posted by Vokal View Post
    Steroids. Possibly.

    Either that or terrible writing.
    Roid rage is a myth.

    Shrunken testicles are not, so....

  3. #123
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    13,273
    He was always pretty aggressive; he made his desire to conquer Theramore plain and clear way back in that comic. Even in Cata, The Shattering and Heart of War, where his more sympathetic traits were set up, he was aggressive, reckless and expansionist. He believes the orcs deserve a better quality of life than a desert can offer, and goes to increasingly brutal and questionable lengths to make it happen. He's never gotten along with Vol'jin, and his opinion of the other Horde races has always began and ended with how much use they are to his war machine.

    All of that has simply gotten worse over time. His faults have been played up and his redeeming qualities -- admittedly few as they were -- have been stripped away one by one.

    It's par for the course of how Blizzard turns lore characters into raid bosses. We've seen it with Fandral, Kael'thas, Illidan, etc.

  4. #124
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,598
    Shitty writing, he could have easily been a proper warchief that still waged wars and slaughtered alliance, without all the crazy.

  5. #125
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Having beers with Dorothy
    Posts
    17,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Shitty writing, he could have easily been a proper warchief that still waged wars and slaughtered alliance, without all the crazy.
    See, thats there the problem comes in. Saying you want a warchief whos sole purpose is to 'slaughter alliance', as if THATS all the horde is about. Thats why Garrosh is the way he is, because you asked for such a character, and didn't think of the consequences of having a warmongering, bloodthirsty leader who is like that.

    The horde and alliance war can be so childish, when the kids don't understand the consequences of war, this is what it leads to, tyrant leaders who become the bad guys.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    See, thats there the problem comes in. Saying you want a warchief whos sole purpose is to 'slaughter alliance', as if THATS all the horde is about. Thats why Garrosh is the way he is, because you asked for such a character, and didn't think of the consequences of having a warmongering, bloodthirsty leader who is like that.

    The horde and alliance war can be so childish, when the kids don't understand the consequences of war, this is what it leads to, tyrant leaders who become the bad guys.
    Can you really not fathom a character between the two extremes? Whose more aggressive than Thrall, and will not hesitate to take what his people need, but isn't as maniacal and off the deep end as Garrosh is going? Blizzard very much could have gone such a route, they just happened to choose to make him a villain. Blizzard doesn't always know where exactly they're taking a character when they introduce him, as the recent interview with Christie Golden interview for her new starcraft novel shows. It IS possible for a character to be gray, not peace seeking like Thrall, but not as over the top and mindlessly aggressive as Garrosh.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    See, thats there the problem comes in. Saying you want a warchief whos sole purpose is to 'slaughter alliance', as if THATS all the horde is about. Thats why Garrosh is the way he is, because you asked for such a character, and didn't think of the consequences of having a warmongering, bloodthirsty leader who is like that.

    The horde and alliance war can be so childish, when the kids don't understand the consequences of war, this is what it leads to, tyrant leaders who become the bad guys.
    Problem is that Garrosh is not a representative of warmonger, but of a common village idiot.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    I just did some of the Landing quests, and noticed while at first, Garrosh seemed pretty cool, when he assisted the Goblins, and they express their thanks, he literally goes on to say he came to save the supplies the Goblins were working on, and even mocks them. Then he threatens them to get to work, by bringing Orcs to make sure of it. Then later, he excessively mocks Vol'jin for no reason at all, and when Vol'jin questions what his motives are, he orders his assassination. I mean wtf, he didn't even do anything.

    But when you look at Cataclysm, he had almost none of these traits, and was at least honorable.
    He's been like this since MoP started.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    One of the reasons he would not rush into killing Jorin is doubt. And the reason he would succeed in battles - talent, just talent and practice of leading the Mag'har against ogres in Garadar.
    You do say that he has little experience, and he really does. Little skirmishes are nothing like organized warfare. Talent and little experience mean very little in the chaos of war. They don't mix well at all. As for Jorin, if he knew that he was the culprit of all this, then what's making him doubt? He's a very obvious threat to the stability of the Horde. It would have been any soldier's duty to kill him without a second thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    We know very little of him actually. I tried to mix in a flaw into a flawless character, a genuine care for the future of the Horde that would evolve into fear that Garrosh takes over and envy to him almost effortlessly winning the hearts of his army. Jorin's instigation push him into a reckless act, something that's not his element.
    We do, but we know he's the son of Varok Saurfang, a very intelligent orc, and he had a lot of respect from his peers, so he obviously got to the rank he did due to his prowess. Orcish culture is a simple, yet complex political machine, but essentially, if you can best someone in single, honorable combat, then you become more respected than them and your words will carry more weight. Why the hell would Junior even begin to think "I need to beat the Lich King" when all he really needs to do is slap Garrosh around in the ring? Again I'm just seeing a breaking of a character to suit your revised version of Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It's fine. I like criticism when it's constructive. This shows that I didn't quite make visible the point I wanted to make. I wanted to add some intrigue and movement to forgotten and wasted characters. The main struggles he was supposed to have would be trusting Jorin, first when he started using fel magics in Nagrand, then after learning about his machinations in Wrath, and ultimately when Jorin betrays him in Cataclysm. The last one is supposed to be hard, he wouldn't believe the evidence until it flies in his face. In canon he didn't have any struggles either - he's supposed to be questioning himself belonging to these people he was appointed to lead. Well, it took me about 15-20 minutes to come up with it, I believe I could do better if I was paid for it. Besides, were there any losses, failures and struggles in canon version?
    See that's the biggest problem. No orc in their right mind would trust anyone after they began using fel magics (or at least any orc after the whole debacle on Draenor). It's certainly a flaw of your Garrosh, but it's not a good one. It forcibly removes one from the story to think "wait, what?" Flaws should be believable.

    There was a lot of inner struggle for Garrosh. It's unfortunately not very visible in-game (but that's mainly because in MMO's that's a very difficult thing to accomplish simply because of the structure of the game), but we do see it, and we can piece it together from the sections of books pertaining to Garrosh as well as similarly focused aspects of the game. It all comes back to his father (a reoccurring, believable flaw!). He hated his father for becoming ridden with demonic bloodlust, and then learned of the good he did and began to emulate him, without fully understanding what Grom was about. He struggles to find his place in the Horde when he first arrives.

    In Cataclysm, we see him struggle with leading the Horde. He sends incompetent generals out to do his work, one disappoints him enough that he goes out to personally kill the guy. In Mists of Pandaria we see he still has a firm grip, perhaps too tight of a grip. He is struggling to control the other leaders of the Horde, threatening that he would kill Lor'Themar for merely disagreeing with him, and even sending an assassin after Vol'jin. He effectively turns Echo Isles into an internment camp. We can see he's paranoid. We can see under the tough exterior, he's scared. He's a tyrant who knows that what he has done has made people angry and he's trying to do everything he can to ensure they can't succeed in whatever they're cooking up.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-02-23 at 09:34 PM.

  10. #130
    I think it's cause he's got a really big body and a tiny little head.

  11. #131
    My guess is he's sexually frustrated. He knows Thrall is settling down with Aggra, and with him still acting badboy without any high success rate on attracting any of his fellow female orcs he needs to let all his frustration out on everyone else.

    To be continued in World of Warcraft: A Love Story, by Richard Knaak.

  12. #132
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    East Coast USA
    Posts
    3,545
    He is finally showing his true nature as the animal Horde are.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  13. #133
    Blizzard aren't very good at writing :x

  14. #134
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burt Reynolds' stache
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Christie Golden:


    Which actually fits very nicely to how I saw him from the get go. I think of him as a little boy with daddy issues. He has no real self identity. You see it with people all the time in the real world. They wrap their self value and identity around some external source. His was all about his father. When he though Grom was bad, he was near suicidal. No motivation what-so-ever. Along comes Thrall and tells him what a great person his father was. He left out all the bad Grom did, though. So, Garrosh thinks: 'Oh dad was a good guy. A hero. I want to be just like him.' So he becomes overly aggressive. You see it a lot in Northrend. He instigates trouble with the Alliance. He runs around trying to be just a cool as his father. Come Cata he takes it one step further, getting tattoos like Grom. Wearing the horns of the demon Grom killed. Using Gorehowl. He is trying to be his father. Enter dragonmaw orcs. He now surrounds himself with people that play off the weakness and push him to be more and more brutal. People who think the Horde should dominate everyone else.

    Basically Garrosh is what happens when you massive amounts of authority to a child who is desperately trying to prove his worth to himself as much as anyone else. And then not having any checks on him.
    Perfection!

  15. #135
    Its obvious Garrosh is abusing steroids

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Christie Golden:


    Which actually fits very nicely to how I saw him from the get go. I think of him as a little boy with daddy issues. He has no real self identity. You see it with people all the time in the real world. They wrap their self value and identity around some external source. His was all about his father. When he though Grom was bad, he was near suicidal. No motivation what-so-ever. Along comes Thrall and tells him what a great person his father was. He left out all the bad Grom did, though. So, Garrosh thinks: 'Oh dad was a good guy. A hero. I want to be just like him.' So he becomes overly aggressive. You see it a lot in Northrend. He instigates trouble with the Alliance. He runs around trying to be just a cool as his father. Come Cata he takes it one step further, getting tattoos like Grom. Wearing the horns of the demon Grom killed. Using Gorehowl. He is trying to be his father. Enter dragonmaw orcs. He now surrounds himself with people that play off the weakness and push him to be more and more brutal. People who think the Horde should dominate everyone else.

    Basically Garrosh is what happens when you massive amounts of authority to a child who is desperately trying to prove his worth to himself as much as anyone else. And then not having any checks on him.
    I think she was spending more time writing that excuse than her book.

  17. #137
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,222
    I think it's less about him getting simply more aggressive and simply that as time goes on he has the means and power to do what he wishes unlike before.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    See, thats there the problem comes in. Saying you want a warchief whos sole purpose is to 'slaughter alliance', as if THATS all the horde is about. Thats why Garrosh is the way he is, because you asked for such a character, and didn't think of the consequences of having a warmongering, bloodthirsty leader who is like that.

    The horde and alliance war can be so childish, when the kids don't understand the consequences of war, this is what it leads to, tyrant leaders who become the bad guys.
    I can understand your point, yeah, but one question remains, and bothers me for a while. What will happen after MoP? After we kill Garrosh?

    MoP is a special instance, where there is no real bad guy - the war itself is the villian here. Garrosh is merely an aspect of the war, killing him is a symbol. We killed the Warmonger, the Warchief, we killed the War. So, what next?

    We all know war won't stop. Technical thing, this game needs PvP. In Vanilla and BC it was simple - 2 sides of the conflict, constantly scratching their past wounds, being unable ot approach diplomacy, but not getting much forther than clashing a few times a day because of lumber. Simple enough. WotLK changed this state, and created an actual backstory of the conflict and why it increased in scale. This time war is more of an official thing, and we see how and why both factions hate each other. In Cata the it's even worse, with a simple-minded, traditionalistic orc being the Warchief, and the High King not helping much. During Cataclysm we had the war at its finest, without a real "bad" or "good" side, but showing all the aspects of war and conflict, and consequences of it.

    MoP changed it all. There is no clash of two enemies, who have reasons and make mistakes. Now it's simple "cowboys versus indians" game, where Garrosh is the bad guy, and Varian (for some insane reason) the good and patient leader. Now there are no descriptions or motives provided for the clashes - war is the evil itself, regardless of everything. Remember the Jade Forest cutscene? This is MoP in a nutshell. "Don't fight, and I mean don't, or terrible, shadowy things will come out and do mean things". I would expect that to be a part of a childrens book, not Warcraft lore. Lore that provides so intense and epic story of war and diplomacy as in WC3.

    So now, when we stated that the War itself it the worst, meanest thing ever, what will happen after killing Garrosh, since the War needs to go on? After so many casualities, broken families and white haired Jainas? The logical thing is a short time of peace, since both factions bled too much. But it can't be done, Battlegrounds won't be closed in next expansion. Permanent peace? Same as above. The War goes on, and during MoP we accomplished pretty much nothing.

    Thats pretty much the reason why current Blizzards writing has problems.

    I think she was spending more time writing that excuse than her book.
    Just edited to say I give thumbs up for this. Tides of War is the worst reading experiance I've ever had.
    Last edited by Okacz; 2013-02-24 at 11:30 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •