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  1. #1
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    [Fire] Stat Weights

    Please note, this thread is purely talking about Fire. Any posts/answers regarding Arcane/Frost will be pointless.

    So today's my first day going back to Fire since about 9 heroic kills ago. My gear's much better, and I noticed I blew past a few Haste caps for DoTs, but now I'm a bit concerned about my stat weights.

    Obviously Crit is king; there's no denying that, but because I haven't found anyone mention it, I'm curious if Haste between DoT caps is better than Mastery.

    Molten Armor and DB alone, I have the following:

    Spellpower: 26,127
    Haste: 14.12% (6,003)
    Crit: 33.70% (9,836) [Post CM and Crit Suppression: 39.91%]
    Mastery: 15.83% (1,530)

    My raid comp also has every buff, so I get an extra 3,000 mastery (so another 7.5% or so on Ignite) and 5% Haste (multiplicative)

    Using the Haste/DoT chart here (http://tinyurl.com/abnvb5x), I'll post the relevant ones (Using the following modifiers: Raid Haste, Non-Goblin, Non-Frost Armor, Non-Time Warp)

    My Haste: 6,003
    Living Bomb: 3,039 - 13,163
    Nether Tempest: 3,056 - 6,414
    Pyroblast: 1,345 - 8,085
    Combustion (Glyphed): 5,036 - 7,073

    So I guess my question is, at what point does Haste between the caps equal less than Mastery, if at all? I still have a few pieces to mix and match from my Arcane set, so I could push a bit of Haste towards Mastery if that would be better for me to do.

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  2. #2
    Brewmaster
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    According to a couple mages in the fire thread, Mastery is better after the 3056 haste cap. Take that for what it is, I haven't simmed my toon as fire in a while so I'm not sure.

  3. #3
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    According to a couple mages in the fire thread, Mastery is better after the 3056 haste cap. Take that for what it is, I haven't simmed my toon as fire in a while so I'm not sure.
    That doesn't help much as it also doesn't explain why.

    Plus, I get an extra tick on Combustion at 5,036.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    That doesn't help much as it also doesn't explain why.

    Plus, I get an extra tick on Combustion at 5,036.
    Then why are you asking the question? You asked: "at what point does Haste between the caps equal less than Mastery?" I told you what was posted in that thread, which you have access to. The why is irrelevant. If it sims higher, it's better. Maybe you should just run your character through the sims if you want the exact answer for your toon?

  5. #5
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Then why are you asking the question? You asked: "at what point does Haste between the caps equal less than Mastery?" I told you what was posted in that thread, which you have access to. The why is irrelevant. If it sims higher, it's better. Maybe you should just run your character through the sims if you want the exact answer for your toon?
    I just took a look through the thread; one person said what you said; mastery after 3056 Haste. OP still says Haste over Mastery.

    I'm still curious as to why only 3056 when I could hit 5036 just as easily though. If it's not worth it then understandable, but is Mastery really better?

    Also, I have no freaking idea how to work the sims, otherwise I wouldn't have really bothered <.<

    Edit: Figured out how it works I think, but I can't find the stat weights.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 01:12 AM ----------

    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    4.46 3.46 3.72 2.65 2.97 2.32 Scale Factors
    1.00 0.78 0.83 0.60 0.67 0.52 Normalized
    1000 1000 -1000 1000 1000 1000 Scale Deltas
    0.43 0.43 0.44 0.42 0.43 0.43 Error

    Scale Factors generated using less than 10,000 iterations may vary significantly from run to run.

    Player may have insufficient iterations (1000) to calculate scale factor for stat hit_rating (error is >10% delta score)
    Player may have insufficient iterations (1000) to calculate scale factor for stat spell_power (error is >10% delta score)
    Player may have insufficient iterations (1000) to calculate scale factor for stat haste_rating (error is >10% delta score)
    Player may have insufficient iterations (1000) to calculate scale factor for stat crit_rating (error is >10% delta score)
    Player may have insufficient iterations (1000) to calculate scale factor for stat mastery_rating (error is >10% delta score)

    So um... ... I feel like something's unsimmable here.

    Edit: EVERY single simulation is coming up with varying results. One time it says Haste > Crit > Mastery, another says Crit > Haste > Mastery, and one said Mastery > Haste > Crit...

    So... ... ... Yeah...
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-02-22 at 06:17 AM.

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  6. #6
    I wouldnt be running sims under 1000 i would be looking at at least 10000. 25k might be overkill but for fire i would do it to try and even out the RNG some what.
    I would be using Ask Mr Robot to force haste break points and then grabbing that data and plugging it into simc and seeing what you get.
    3056 Haste for a non goblin fully raid buffed is a great starting point as you cover extra ticks for LB (3039) pyro (1345) Glyphed Combustion (3056)
    5036 is not enough for LB and Pyro's next tick but is enough to an extra combustion. that extra ~2000 haste wont give you all that many extra fireball casts either. So I would think it would be better spent on Crit for that extra HS chance or mastery to pump up your dots.

    This is why some mages say Mastery is better after the 3056 haste cap.

    I might have to fire up simc again tonight and have a dig.

    One more thing. Simc tends to favour haste if its close to a haste break point. this is why you can sometimes get crit > haste > mastery or crit > mastery > haste

  7. #7
    Did u try in raids fire so far ? Kinda curios... so when u test , pls say ur thoughts about it.

  8. #8
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    get more crit rating.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So um... ... I feel like something's unsimmable here.

    Edit: EVERY single simulation is coming up with varying results. One time it says Haste > Crit > Mastery, another says Crit > Haste > Mastery, and one said Mastery > Haste > Crit...

    So... ... ... Yeah...
    Under Options you find the point: "Iterations". Should be the second option direct under the global tab.
    1000 is standard but very low.
    Set it to 10.000 or more and you get better results.
    It will take a longer time but its better. Get a coffee while u wait

    Edit: Running two simulations:
    Both with 25.000 Iterations, 450 sec Patchwerk, only secondarys scaling:
    First with your current armory:
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    0.00 0.00 3.80 3.02 2.89 2.14

    Second with your Haste and Masteryvalues swapped. (i know you cant reforge for that exactly its just to see where it goes)
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    0.00 0.00 3.90 2.95 2.76 1.97

    In both cases is Haste over Mastery. I dont have the time now to check every hasteplateau. Maybe i will do something at the weekend. Just 2 samples for you. If u have questions towards the tool feel free to ask.
    Last edited by Tomathan; 2013-02-22 at 11:26 AM.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mejn View Post
    Did u try in raids fire so far ? Kinda curios... so when u test , pls say ur thoughts about it.
    Not yet, though my first test, I did over 160k on the dummy XD I had a REALLY nice RNG with a string of Pyro Crits.

    Granted, last night was my first night going Fire in a LONG time. I'll have some parses for Heroic HoF on Monday night if anyone's interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Under Options you find the point: "Iterations". Should be the second option direct under the global tab.
    1000 is standard but very low.
    Set it to 10.000 or more and you get better results.
    It will take a longer time but its better. Get a coffee while u wait

    Edit: Running two simulations:
    Both with 25.000 Iterations, 450 sec Patchwerk, only secondarys scaling:
    First with your current armory:
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    0.00 0.00 3.80 3.02 2.89 2.14

    Second with your Haste and Masteryvalues swapped. (i know you cant reforge for that exactly its just to see where it goes)
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    0.00 0.00 3.90 2.95 2.76 1.97

    In both cases is Haste over Mastery. I dont have the time now to check every hasteplateau. Maybe i will do something at the weekend. Just 2 samples for you. If u have questions towards the tool feel free to ask.
    Ahh okay, thank you. I had no idea what I was really doing with SimC

    Running another Sim as I type this, with 50,000 because why the fuck not. Will post results after I get some breakfast.

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  11. #11
    OK im a little drunk, but i have been playing around with SimC since i got home from the pub so i hope i did it right. but for me i got

    At 8198 haste no glyph (just past xtra tick on combustion)
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.22	3.20	3.36	2.61	1.92	1.88
    At 3119 haste no glyph
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.12	3.14	3.49	2.51	2.37	1.88
    At 3119 haste with Combustion glyph (just past extra tick on combustion)
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.29	3.30	3.63	2.52	2.09	2.14
    It seems that haste and mastery are about equal at the point of a haste plateau but then mastery falls behind quickly as you get more haste with crit always in front.
    Last edited by pyrostorm9001; 2013-02-22 at 04:12 PM.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Okay, after 50,000 iterations, here's what I got.

    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.67	3.49	3.93	2.71	2.85	2.46
    1.00	0.75	0.84	0.58	0.61	0.53
    1000	1000	-1000	1000	1000	1000
    0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06
    Still comes out to Haste > Crit > Mastery... hmm... Keep in mind, this is using my current gear/stat weights, not the T15 ones.

    Granted, this is at 6,003 Haste and the next Glyphed Combustion tick is at 7,073, and the next NT (which I'm using atm) is 6,414. I'm curious if swapping NT with LB would change anything...

    Edit: Thank you Pyrostorm for teaching me that Code thing XD

    Edit 2: Doing another 25,000 Iterations (because holy fuck, 50k took like two years) with LB instead of NT. I feel like that skews things a bit due to the low plateaus:

    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.67	3.63	3.94	2.84	2.37	2.53
    Hmmm... Mastery over Haste. Interesting.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-02-22 at 04:27 PM.

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  13. #13
    hehe no worries, as far as changing NT to LB im almost certain that you would find haste would fall behind crit.

    One more thing. I did a quick sim of your toon with 25k iterations fight length was 480-720 secs long. I tend to do this as not all fights are the same length and sometimes killing things faster or longer stuffs up your cool downs greatly changing the results. with your gear I was able to get the following stats resulting in a sim DPS of 107592
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.47	3.40	3.68	2.73	2.67	2.34
    I then reforged/regemed with Ask Mr Robot and grabbed the simc export file of those gear changes. loaded that in SimC and got the following stats resulting in a sim DPS of 107494
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.41	3.32	3.68	2.65	2.64	2.19
    again reforged/regemed resulting in a sim DPS of 106747
    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    44.43	3.33	3.56	2.65	2.37	2.28
    Notice the decline in DPS. so relative to your stats as they are on live. the more i changed things to match simc's stat results the lower in dps i got. im not 100% on this but i think its because simc knows your close to a haste plateau and is trying to reach it. but its doing it at a sacrifice to crit.
    This goes back to Crit > haste > mastery where haste will fluctuate depending on how close it is to the next break point or how many more fireballs you can squeeze into the fight.
    Last edited by pyrostorm9001; 2013-02-22 at 04:45 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Okay, after 50,000 iterations, here's what I got.

    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.67	3.49	3.93	2.71	2.85	2.46
    1.00	0.75	0.84	0.58	0.61	0.53
    1000	1000	-1000	1000	1000	1000
    0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06	0.06
    Still comes out to Haste > Crit > Mastery... hmm... Keep in mind, this is using my current gear/stat weights, not the T15 ones.

    Granted, this is at 6,003 Haste and the next Glyphed Combustion tick is at 7,073, and the next NT (which I'm using atm) is 6,414. I'm curious if swapping NT with LB would change anything...

    Edit: Thank you Pyrostorm for teaching me that Code thing XD

    Edit 2: Doing another 25,000 Iterations (because holy fuck, 50k took like two years) with LB instead of NT. I feel like that skews things a bit due to the low plateaus:

    Code:
    Int	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    4.67	3.63	3.94	2.84	2.37	2.53
    Hmmm... Mastery over Haste. Interesting.
    I really dont know atm, the reason why we went for 3k haste before was cause 5k and 6k caps weren't possible without gemming and reforging for haste at that time, now with all the haste gear, its pretty easily doable.. But as contrast my crit has 3.21 weight with full on crit gemming and reforging, followed by haste, followed by mastery. Cant actually remember everything atm as I cant log to my mage atm and change gemming/gear and sim it, but generally speaking haste is a decent stat, you just got to find the nearest cap and put the rest to mastery. Also haste makes your spells faster, which makes you get more HS procs.

  15. #15
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I really dont know atm, the reason why we went for 3k haste before was cause 5k and 6k caps weren't possible without gemming and reforging for haste at that time, now with all the haste gear, its pretty easily doable.. But as contrast my crit has 3.21 weight with full on crit gemming and reforging, followed by haste, followed by mastery. Cant actually remember everything atm as I cant log to my mage atm and change gemming/gear and sim it, but generally speaking haste is a decent stat, you just got to find the nearest cap and put the rest to mastery. Also haste makes your spells faster, which makes you get more HS procs.
    I'm doing the same; Crit is most important in both Gemming and Reforging.

    Also, fuck Mastery. I'm just not bothering with it because come 5.2 with all the RPPM trinkets, it'll definitely be < Haste.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-02-22 at 04:46 PM.

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  16. #16
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    wtf doublepost?
    What double-post?

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  17. #17
    It would seem my pc is playing tricks on me. on my screen i had posted twice the exact same thing in the thread. i then went to edit it and now my page double has been removed.... i blame firefox /shakesfist

    In anycase i agree with the new trinkets (and meta) haste will be better than Mastery no question. However i wonder if the meta's mini timewarps will call for higher amounts of haste. if i ever reach 38-39 crit (~50% under CM) Ill be interested to see what more haste does
    Last edited by pyrostorm9001; 2013-02-22 at 04:59 PM.

  18. #18
    The dps-difference between haste till cap > mastery > haste and haste > mastery is very small. ( pyrostorm's posts support that)

    But for the fights where fire shines (cleave) mastery becomes better than haste because of dot-spreading. So I would recommend to get the additional combustion tick and then 2krit>int>>mastery>haste.

  19. #19
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    It would seem my pc is playing tricks on me. on my screen i had posted twice the exact same thing in the thread. i then went to edit it and now my page double has been removed.... i blame firefox /shakesfist

    In anycase i agree with the new trinkets (and meta) haste will be better than Mastery no question. However i wonder if the meta's mini timewarps will call for higher amounts of haste. if i ever reach 38-39 crit (~50% under CM) Ill be interested to see what more haste does
    Lol, you must be semi-new to the forums

    When you add a post to your post, or edit a post, it will, almost always, show a second post of yours with the edit, and another being the original.




    BACK TO ON TOPIC!: More Haste = More PPM, but more Haste means less Crit, which also means greater RNG.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Moco View Post
    The dps-difference between haste till cap > mastery > haste and haste > mastery is very small. ( pyrostorm's posts support that)

    But for the fights where fire shines (cleave) mastery becomes better than haste because of dot-spreading. So I would recommend to get the additional combustion tick and then 2krit>int>>mastery>haste.
    Eh. Not too worried about Cleave damage. I'll just keep with 2Crit > HPlateaus > C > H > M

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  20. #20
    Crap i did forget about multiple mobs. How many cleave fights do we have in 5.2? i have tried to stay away from encounter data so i dont spoil it for when it goes live.

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