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  1. #21
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    Crap i did forget about multiple mobs. How many cleave fights do we have in 5.2? i have tried to stay away from encounter data so i dont spoil it for when it goes live.
    *shrug*

    I just came up with a few dummy tests though; nothing long or serious, but here's what I got (these were all done on live in my current gear, with DB, MA, and 500 Int Flask; http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...blast/advanced)

    ST: ~160k with INCREDIBLY LUCKY strings of Crits
    *Cleave (forgetting to use Invo): 170k on 3 targets
    *Cleave (using Invo): Peaked at 200k on 3 targets

    * Was only done for one cycle of Invo; it was just for fun and to test my pull DPS

    While these numbers aren't that reliable for anyone, it's more or less an over-sim.

    Regardless, once you get geared, Fire gets really nice; even nicer as you get the T15 bonuses. The T14 bonuses are eh. 2P is 8% Pyro damage, which is nice, but the 4P T15 is 5% Crit (way nicer), and the 4P T14 is worthless if you're using AT, while the 2P T15 is 1800 Crit, Haste, and Mastery after using AT, which is huge for our second string of Pyros.

  2. #22
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot and wanted to jump in about the stat weight discussion. It's rare I get to share my geek knowledge in this much depth

    Pyro - the way you ran sets of gear between AMR and SimC is actually an approach we take to get our set weights. But we do it a little different because of how SimC works.

    SimC is awesome. It simulates your DPS and spits out stat weights FOR that gear. To do this, SimC adds 200-300 of each stat, and takes away 200-300 of each stat. They average the differences and give you your stat weights. As you suspected, Pyro, Haste breakpoints can mess with this. They don't weight the breakpoint higher, but if you're near a breakpoint, you can see how that would affect the stat weights.

    Now, when you're reforging, gemming, etc... you're changing more than 200-300 of a stat at a time. So we use large negative deltas. We start with the best set of gear, gems, etc, then start taking away large amounts of each stat. In fact, we do this with real sets of gear, not theoreticals, so that we are always testing something in 'reality.' We do this over and over (we wrote a program to automate it for us). We then take the stat weights and put them into Mr. Robot (just like you did), and we continue to run this process until we get a stable set of weights. Note, we also make sure we avoid the haste breakpoints in SimC that would mess with the stat weights. (We handle haste breakpoints with different code on our site).

    Now, those stable weights are good for a couple of reasons. One - as your gear changes, a stable set of weights won't change the gems/enchants are reforges on you all the time. Two - we use the stat weights to generate BiS lists. If you change the stat weights all the time, the BiS list changes all the time. But a stable set of weights doesn't.

    That being said, we let people use custom weights because they can be better. When people know how to use SimC, and take the Mr. Robot suggestions and put it back into SimC, it's REALLY powerful
    Last edited by Zoopercat; 2013-02-22 at 08:46 PM.
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  3. #23
    Hey Zoopercat when it comes to custom weights I find it a bit of a pain to set a haste breakpoint, aka Soft Cap. Could you have an option to force a rating rather than a %?
    I would prefer to tell AMR that I want 3056 haste rating THEN reforge for crit > haste > mastery.

  4. #24
    Pyro,
    We use haste %'s because it's the same for everyone. For example, let's say you're a Resto Shaman. All resto shamans want to get to 25% Haste (let's say). That's the same no matter your race or talents. But, if you have Ancestral Swiftness AND you're a goblin, you need 5,199 Haste Rating on your gear. If you aren't a goblin, you need 5,676. If you are a goblin but don't have Ancestral swiftness you need 7,584. And if you're not a goblin and don't have Ancestral Swiftness you need 8,085. All of those numbers still get you to 25%.

    However, theorycrafters haven't adopted the % yet, and tend to only talk about the haste rating. That makes it really hard for people who want to put those haste ratings into our site. For now, if you scroll to the end of this article, you'll see a haste rating calculator right above the breakpoint image. You'll want to put 0.126 into AMR.

    But one more thing! We're always looking to improve. We know that a lot of people like haste ratings! So we're working on a super-fancy feature that let's you pick your breakpoint. The big idea we have is that it will also show you what you get at each breakpoint to help you choose the one that's right for you
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  5. #25
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Pyro,
    We use haste %'s because it's the same for everyone. For example, let's say you're a Resto Shaman. All resto shamans want to get to 25% Haste (let's say). That's the same no matter your race or talents. But, if you have Ancestral Swiftness AND you're a goblin, you need 5,199 Haste Rating on your gear. If you aren't a goblin, you need 5,676. If you are a goblin but don't have Ancestral swiftness you need 7,584. And if you're not a goblin and don't have Ancestral Swiftness you need 8,085. All of those numbers still get you to 25%.

    However, theorycrafters haven't adopted the % yet, and tend to only talk about the haste rating. That makes it really hard for people who want to put those haste ratings into our site. For now, if you scroll to the end of this article, you'll see a haste rating calculator right above the breakpoint image. You'll want to put 0.126 into AMR.

    But one more thing! We're always looking to improve. We know that a lot of people like haste ratings! So we're working on a super-fancy feature that let's you pick your breakpoint. The big idea we have is that it will also show you what you get at each breakpoint to help you choose the one that's right for you
    WTB thumbs up or upvote for this.

  6. #26
    Sweet! thanks for that Zoopercat.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Pyro,
    We use haste %'s because it's the same for everyone. For example, let's say you're a Resto Shaman. All resto shamans want to get to 25% Haste (let's say). That's the same no matter your race or talents. But, if you have Ancestral Swiftness AND you're a goblin, you need 5,199 Haste Rating on your gear. If you aren't a goblin, you need 5,676. If you are a goblin but don't have Ancestral swiftness you need 7,584. And if you're not a goblin and don't have Ancestral Swiftness you need 8,085. All of those numbers still get you to 25%.

    However, theorycrafters haven't adopted the % yet, and tend to only talk about the haste rating. That makes it really hard for people who want to put those haste ratings into our site. For now, if you scroll to the end of this article, you'll see a haste rating calculator right above the breakpoint image. You'll want to put 0.126 into AMR.

    But one more thing! We're always looking to improve. We know that a lot of people like haste ratings! So we're working on a super-fancy feature that let's you pick your breakpoint. The big idea we have is that it will also show you what you get at each breakpoint to help you choose the one that's right for you
    There is just 1 small thing, It appears to not count Frost armor at all atm, so everytime I would like to get to a certain haste, I need to calculate my haste without frost armor, so with frost armor it would be at the desired level, but other than that its pretty nice program as it takes even gemming to account. Not that its terribly hard to figure out atm.

  8. #28
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Thanks much for the info, Zooper Wasn't expecting an AMR member to come here XD

    PS: I love AMR most of all not for the reforging or the regemming, but for two things: Optimizing to tell me when I'm dumb and forgot an enchant, or the ever-useful Upgrades list. Rather than checking filters in Wowhead, I just check the upgrade list for all my gears and whatnot. I must have been to AMR at least 50-75 times this tier alone!

  9. #29
    mrgreenthump - we do account for Frost Armor. It's automatic - the final stats Mr. Robot shows you in the stats window accounts for Frost Armor, buffs, etc. If you give me your character name and realm I can take a look to make sure everything is in tip-top shape. What Haste breakpoint are you trying to reach (we don't have one in the preset stat weights, but you can add one in). Toward the bottom of this post is a calculator to convert rating to %.

    Dragon, glad you like it! I can't raid without the tool (which is why we built it in the first place). It saves me so much time doing the math myself
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  10. #30
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Dragon, glad you like it! I can't raid without the tool (which is why we built it in the first place). It saves me so much time doing the math myself
    I mostly just use it to tell me when I'm being an idiot with enchants/gems or for upgrade lists. I'm MUCH too lazy to manually do reforges, so I just plug numbers into ReforgeLite and it essentially does the same thing *chuckle*.

    If I wanted to sit around for a few hours and plug in my BiS items though, I'd probably pull AMR over RL for that, though

    Regardless, I still frequent it. Those BiS lists save me a ton of time.

  11. #31
    Hi Zoopercat,

    I have assumed that Mr.Robot only expects 5% raid haste, as explained in your blog (http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2012/10/h...ing-explained/). How does Mr.Robot know to choose Frost armor over e.g. Mage, since this is not an option we can set for our character?

  12. #32
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    *Chuckle* I like how my post went from Fire Stats to the "Ask Zoopercat" thread. Not that I'm complaining (hell, I got my answer long ago); I just think it's funny

  13. #33
    Mini - we use a specific one for each spec. I forget what they are, I'd have to look it up. But it's whatever the top theorycrafters were suggesting. I'll try to post a lot of these assumptions when we update for 5.2. I think that would be super helpful.
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  14. #34
    Lets say as a frost mage I had capped out on Crit and Haste and changed my armor to Mage armor as im under GCD cap. How would I tell AMR this?
    It would be great if we had an advanced option to apply raid buffs and personal armors. Especially when some 10man groups are unable to get 5% spell haste.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    Lets say as a frost mage I had capped out on Crit and Haste and changed my armor to Mage armor as im under GCD cap. How would I tell AMR this?
    You wouldn't want to do this because reforging Haste -> Mastery and keeping Frost Armor would be a better option.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    You wouldn't want to do this because reforging Haste -> Mastery and keeping Frost Armor would be a better option.
    Exactly. Multiplicative and because Frost Mastery sucks. :3

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    You wouldn't want to do this because reforging Haste -> Mastery and keeping Frost Armor would be a better option.
    Oh I know this, the point more or less was to ask for some customization rather than have it assume a perfect set up. Perhaps i should have said haste arcane with frost armor vs mastery arcane using mage armor. but then again its looking like we are back to RoP mastery

  18. #38
    so the looks of the results secondary stat gemming>int (even mastery gem outweighs int gem zzzz)

    red=expertise
    yellow=crit nomnom
    blue=hit

    by gemming expertise than int will give you more stats to play around with and hit the next combustion tick(5036) or even next NT tick
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2013-02-24 at 05:54 AM.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    so the looks of the results secondary stat gemming>int (even mastery gem outweighs int gem zzzz)

    red=expertise
    yellow=crit nomnom
    blue=hit

    by gemming expertise than int will give you more stats to play around with and hit the next combustion tick(5036) or even next NT tick
    It will only happen if haste(or mastery) has more than half the weight of int for fire, and currently it does not. We gain no crit rating atm when gemming expertise, as we can just reforge haste and mastery to hit and max out on crit quite easily, and in the next patch its going to be a lot easier to do so. Now IF haste does prove to be a lot stronger than currently, then yes we will gem expertise on red just as we do atm as Arcane..

    So in short only gem expertise if you gain stats that are more than half of your int value.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    It will only happen if haste(or mastery) has more than half the weight of int for fire, and currently it does not. We gain no crit rating atm when gemming expertise, as we can just reforge haste and mastery to hit and max out on crit quite easily, and in the next patch its going to be a lot easier to do so. Now IF haste does prove to be a lot stronger than currently, then yes we will gem expertise on red just as we do atm as Arcane..

    So in short only gem expertise if you gain stats that are more than half of your int value.
    I think she meant to do Expertise Crit and Hit Crit for those Red/Blue sockets (respectively).

    The problem with doing this is you'll be way over hit cap. I'm not sure what to do with my blue sockets... Unless the bonus is actually something I want, I might just do pure Crit from now on because it's already hard enough to reforge OUT of Hit and still be just at the hit cap rather than ridiculously over it.

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