Ret 5.3 : Divine Purpose, Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath ?

[Shelly]

TLDR: You dont need to be hardcore to choose performance over fun. Actually every average raider should value performance more. If not, they just lower the fps of those with the standar intelligence quotient.

Wow, two extremes being highlighted here.

Argument 1) If you give a damn about a video game you're going to forget having fun because the only thing that matters is performance!

Argument 2) As long as we're clearing the content who cares? Go ahead and slack.

Both of these are COMPLETELY missing the point of my post.

Just because you don't care to go with the absolute most extremely efficient way in which to play your character doesn't mean you are ok with slacking. It just means you have a style of play that works for you and you will do your best to maximize your returns within that style of play.

As stated before I'm an LFR hero. I would prefer to deal with more people following argument 2 than proselytizing argument 1 at me all day. Not that that often happened, I'm pretty good at what I do and honestly more "raiders" fall closer to argument 2 than 1. That doesn't mean that I haven't tested various talent combinations in a raid environment or that I haven't made sure to check my gemming or that I haven't swapped talents between bosses or any other of a number of variables.

What it does mean is that I have a threshold of general DPS that I'm able to do with what's considered the weakest of that tier of talents - DP, but as it works well with my playstyle I am not willing to give it up unless the other talents can provide a much higher boost to my dps to warrant the change. Now if I was like Anaxie and able to get reliable 300k+ crits with my hammer of wrath that would totally put me over the hump to grab SW. Since at this point my TV hits harder than HoW it's numerically superior to get HA as that lets me crank out more TVs and harder hitting ones.

However, neither of them is supplying the 10 to 15k dps increase that would justify my switching. Instead they are increasing by 5k give or take which is just a 6% increase over my current dps of a reliable 80k.

Long story short. Just because you are willing to play with a suboptimal talent choice doesn't mean you don't care about your dps. Same as someone actively not playing their best under the simple justification that it's their $15/mo still deserves a vote-kick and some raid coaching for actively working against the "fun" of the entire group.

As with all things though, your mileage may vary.

[catablitz]

Argument 1) If you give a damn about raiding in a guild you're going to forget having fun because the only thing that matters is performance! Fixed!

It just means you have a style of play that works for you and you will do your best to maximize your returns within that style of play. Fundamental contradiction.
Why would you do your best to maximize the returns if you failed picking a correct talent in the first place?

If you are an LFR hero you simply give a bad impression and inevitably you are not respected as a player who is 100% efficient. If you dont take pride in your game thats up to you.

If more people follow your argument then it means that most of the rets are suited for serious raiding and they are wasting their and other's people time. It is like saying: I will not accept this free given to me Ferrari because I don't like red!

If you find 5k negligible, this is up to you but any serious raider and not an LFR hero as you stated you are would sleep with a 60 year old granny for 1%.

Choosing to play suboptimally is beyond my comprehension. If we were playing together im an LFR and I had the power to kick you I would do so. Raid=team effort=responsibility to deliver the expected and if you fail on purpose you have no place there. You demoralise me and you insult me because you make things harder so you can have your fun. You do have the right to make any compromising you want in your performance but not in a raid or any team oriented case.

[Vathius]

I always stick with SW in pvp.

Tried the others and while DP is fun for BGs and such its to RNG for my liking. HA is good burst but considering you still need to be in melee the majority of the time to really unleash some dps and your CCed like crazy soon as anyone sees 'wings'.

SW enables a good 30 seconds of ranged dps ( 3 seconds hammers are amazing ) so even if your CCed for half your wings duration your still have another 15 seconds of hammer time plus your more of a ranged beast, I can unleash some formidable dps even while been kited ( glyph of WOG helps as well )

with the 2 min CD its going to be fun to have only have a minute and a half between my 3 seacond hammers

[Reith]

I always stick with SW in pvp.

Tried the others and while DP is fun for BGs and such its to RNG for my liking. HA is good burst but considering you still need to be in melee the majority of the time to really unleash some dps and your CCed like crazy soon as anyone sees 'wings'.

No offense, but that's a terrible argument against Holy Avenger. You can split Avenging Wrath and Holy Avenger up so if they do CC you for Avenging Wrath, they will be much less likely to for Holy Avenger.

[Sorshen]

DP playstyle is hard to quit, at least for me. It just fits me ATM. I'm not in a top guild and don't care about 1-2% extra dps. I'd probably have worse dps if I switch.

[Shelly]

Argument 1) If you give a damn about raiding in a guild you're going to forget having fun because the only thing that matters is performance! Fixed!

It just means you have a style of play that works for you and you will do your best to maximize your returns within that style of play. Fundamental contradiction.
Why would you do your best to maximize the returns if you failed picking a correct talent in the first place?

If you are an LFR hero you simply give a bad impression and inevitably you are not respected as a player who is 100% efficient. If you dont take pride in your game thats up to you.

Here's the thing.

I'm not in competition with you. The only person I care about doing better than is me. I like to do the best I can in a way that has fun. I DO take pride in my game and it's rather offensive that you'd say I wouldn't. It's just MY game is NOT your game.

I don't need to be respected for 100% efficiency, what I am respected for is for being a good raider within my own LIMITED SCOPE. And I hope that you are as well, within YOUR scope. When doing LFR I'm friendly, explain the fights if I need to and offer advice when asked and enjoy myself.

When I'm doing normal raiding I'm respected for keeping my DPS well within the pack and often towards the top of it (good lord it's been hard to find competent raiders since BC!) I'm also respected for knowing the fights, completing my role and staying out of the fire. My lack of achievement of the highest theoretical DPS has NOTHING to do with how well I raid.

If more people follow your argument then it means that most of the rets are suited for serious raiding and they are wasting their and other's people time. It is like saying: I will not accept this free given to me Ferrari because I don't like red!

I'm going to assume you forgot a "not" in there and your straw man is pretty weak.

What it's more like is someone showing up with a Ferrari and me going "You know, I think I'd prefer to take the truck because I can't use the Ferrari to move and in most cases I won't be given the opportunity to go as fast as the car can push so I'll take the utility that matches my particular idiom."

And that's just it. I like DP since it's more forgiving to a rotation - every now and again I refresh inquisition early or hit TV instead and in those cases I have a 20% chance of getting a "do over." Also while HA and SW certainly give the maximum theoretical DPS they don't work out that way in the game I'm playing. I don't have someone funneling me tricks with skull banner up while under hysteria and time warp/lust. That's an amount of coordination that is impossible at the level of game I'm currently playing. So Instead I'm happy to just show up in LFR gear with a few valor pieces and rock my 75 to 80k and have fun.

And in doing so I'm not impacting your game one bit.

If you find 5k negligible, this is up to you but any serious raider and not an LFR hero as you stated you are would sleep with a 60 year old granny for 1%.

Really? Wow. I thought I was prone to hyperbole.

No. Actually they wouldn't, well some of them might but then again I've raided with a few 60+ year old folks who did great and in their cases it would be sleeping with their wives or girlfriends.

I've been the serious raider. The ONLY time that 1% even matters is when you're pushing content and missing enrage timers by seconds. Even then the answer often times has less to do with a single talent choice by a single player and much more to do with proper execution of the fight by the raid group. Having people get out of the fire faster, having people move just far enough so they aren't wasting time they could be casting, having the melee in the correct areas, anticipation of adds and their fast removal so DPS can get back to the boss.

Choosing to play suboptimally is beyond my comprehension. If we were playing together im an LFR and I had the power to kick you I would do so. Raid=team effort=responsibility to deliver the expected and if you fail on purpose you have no place there. You demoralise me and you insult me because you make things harder so you can have your fun. You do have the right to make any compromising you want in your performance but not in a raid or any team oriented case.

Ha ha ha. Wow, I'm quite impressed that I've managed to both insult and demoralize you! That actually makes me smile a bit.

And it's a good thing you don't have the extra votes needed to remove me from an LFR. If you did everyone would miss out on me cracking jokes about the size of my wedding tackle.

Either way, there's a HUGE difference between showing up to a raid completely untalented, wearing gear outside of your role, lacking raid awareness and unwillingness to listen to criticism compared to choosing a DPS talent with a 5% variance that fits your playstyle over two others that do not.

And really you wouldn't have to worry about me raiding with you. Any guild I created I would have benched you for being so uptight that I think your ass could do double duty as a bottle opener.

Unclench man! It's a GAME!

[catablitz]

Here's the thing.

I'm not in competition with you. The only person I care about doing better than is me. I like to do the best I can in a way that has fun. I DO take pride in my game and it's rather offensive that you'd say I wouldn't. It's just MY game is NOT your game.

I don't need to be respected for 100% efficiency, what I am respected for is for being a good raider within my own LIMITED SCOPE. And I hope that you are as well, within YOUR scope. When doing LFR I'm friendly, explain the fights if I need to and offer advice when asked and enjoy myself.

When I'm doing normal raiding I'm respected for keeping my DPS well within the pack and often towards the top of it (good lord it's been hard to find competent raiders since BC!) I'm also respected for knowing the fights, completing my role and staying out of the fire. My lack of achievement of the highest theoretical DPS has NOTHING to do with how well I raid.



I'm going to assume you forgot a "not" in there and your straw man is pretty weak.

What it's more like is someone showing up with a Ferrari and me going "You know, I think I'd prefer to take the truck because I can't use the Ferrari to move and in most cases I won't be given the opportunity to go as fast as the car can push so I'll take the utility that matches my particular idiom."

And that's just it. I like DP since it's more forgiving to a rotation - every now and again I refresh inquisition early or hit TV instead and in those cases I have a 20% chance of getting a "do over." Also while HA and SW certainly give the maximum theoretical DPS they don't work out that way in the game I'm playing. I don't have someone funneling me tricks with skull banner up while under hysteria and time warp/lust. That's an amount of coordination that is impossible at the level of game I'm currently playing. So Instead I'm happy to just show up in LFR gear with a few valor pieces and rock my 75 to 80k and have fun.

And in doing so I'm not impacting your game one bit.



Really? Wow. I thought I was prone to hyperbole.

No. Actually they wouldn't, well some of them might but then again I've raided with a few 60+ year old folks who did great and in their cases it would be sleeping with their wives or girlfriends.

I've been the serious raider. The ONLY time that 1% even matters is when you're pushing content and missing enrage timers by seconds. Even then the answer often times has less to do with a single talent choice by a single player and much more to do with proper execution of the fight by the raid group. Having people get out of the fire faster, having people move just far enough so they aren't wasting time they could be casting, having the melee in the correct areas, anticipation of adds and their fast removal so DPS can get back to the boss.



Ha ha ha. Wow, I'm quite impressed that I've managed to both insult and demoralize you! That actually makes me smile a bit.

And it's a good thing you don't have the extra votes needed to remove me from an LFR. If you did everyone would miss out on me cracking jokes about the size of my wedding tackle.

Either way, there's a HUGE difference between showing up to a raid completely untalented, wearing gear outside of your role, lacking raid awareness and unwillingness to listen to criticism compared to choosing a DPS talent with a 5% variance that fits your playstyle over two others that do not.

And really you wouldn't have to worry about me raiding with you. Any guild I created I would have benched you for being so uptight that I think your ass could do double duty as a bottle opener.

Unclench man! It's a GAME!

The discussion began on the grounds of judging the effect of fun factor over efficiency in a raid environment. I explained my argument by stating that any sane leader of guild that raids 3 days and has the ambitions of clearing the instance will value more even the smallest detail that adds up to the overall performance because the average raid material of a said guild can't get away through compensating with skill.

Actually even the most hardcore players in world class guilds will not 'go for fun' even when it has been months since content is on farm status for them and they clear in a day. Can you comprehend why is that? Because raiding requires discipline and respect. If you care more about the feeling or the comfort of a rotation than the absolute best you are expected to deliver then you hurt your team. It is that simple, really!

Yet, you minimise the discussion into LFR and orient it around your microworld. But guess what, even there the same team game principles apply. How about saying that you are not the only special and that everybody according to your logic is playing their own game, meaning that everybody (you dint think of that, did you?) has the right to play like you? How about a raid, even an LFR one, where 25 people INTENTIONALLY sacrifise performance for fun? Yea, that would mean what? Squishy tanks, inefficient healing and 5% less dps from everyone. I can see this raid being fun as I can see it being the definition of failure.

Yes, you would demoralise me since I would have to make up for your choice of poor optimisation aka carry you and you would insult me as it would be like telling me 'Hey dude i want to raid and loot but i cba to do what is necessary from my part so suck it and bare with me'

Yea! Pick the truck and arrive one hour later in the finish line and when people ask you why you came with a truck tell them that you dont care about when you would arrive since driving the Ferrari wasnt comfortable for you.

Being bad has a scale I know, it goes from brain dead to a fool. Someone that doesnt know the correct optimisation can be called a noob but someone who does and yet intentionally opts to avoid it can be called bad. Mileage may vary.

We are talking more than 1% but even if it was 1, it matters in more occasions than you think and most of all by showing respect to a team effort and not intentionally make things harder. But I forgot....in your example you are the only special child where the rest play optimally.

You dont have to worry about me raiding with you, last time I raided non LFR with a guy that doesnt know how to spec was in TBC with 10 times more complicated choices.

We clearly have different mentality about what you are supposed to do in a team game. You prioritise your fun over helping the team the best way you can, but opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.

[Strear]

Could we please stick to the subject ?

[Revvo]

Meh, I fuck around with talent choices on farm cause yolo. Sometimes SW isn't the best choice. ie HWoTE, DP is actually better with reasonable RNG, because TVs are physical, and most times you'll get more with DP. Another example(that is debatable) is that our guilds Rets feel like HA is better for HSha because of the crazy burst we can get on adds during p2.

[Deleted]

Look, Catablitz, i respect you and all, but you need to realize that sims have a big flaw when compared to real life: they don't take player preference and gear into account.

Every player plays differently, on varying skill levels, and prefers different playstyles. i've simmed it with the T14 heroic BiS set to simulate the base 2m AW, and the DPS difference between DP, HA and SW is 2700 DPS from lowest (DP) to highest (SW). meanwhile, DPS for any of these can fluctuate anywhere up to 6K depending on how lucky you are or aren't. this is with Elite Player Skill, which means that it's basically top 1% of the players. there is a DPS difference, but it's limited to 3%. In this case, a player who doesn't like the shorter CD on HoW from SW, or who is used to the zealotry playstyle, can choose HA and will likely gain DPS, because he can utilize the effect more effectively.

you also need to realize that the replacement set bonus will favor HA and DP more than SW, because TV procs seals, but HoW doesn't. in addition, encounters also require different playstyles. for example, Horridon requires you to burn down a mob to 50% HP rapidly on a reliable timer. this doesn't take 30 seconds and happens every 1-2 minutes on average. this means that if you spec HA, you have a burn tool every time the mob appears. in this case, HA is the best to take.

[Revvo]

TBH with your example of Horridon there I would take SW. With 2 min baseline wings, you're better off because TV hits like a wet noodle.

[Nairobi]

TBH with your example of Horridon there I would take SW. With 2 min baseline wings, you're better off because TV hits like a wet noodle.

While I don't disagree about TV being lackluster, I'm not sure I'd call it wet noodle with 2/4pc t15. Pure holy dmg is nothing to scoff at. However, considering DP ONLY proc's TVs, I agree entirely that it's a poor choice of a talent, especially given the alternatives.

As Nzall (and others) pointed out, HA is going to be better in situations that require more frequent burst and/or AOE burst. Using HA seperately from AW means moderate burst every 60 seconds. Or linking means silly burst every 2mins OR spammed DS's for AOE if required.

Meanwhile, SW has it's own strong suits in terms of overall uptime @ 25%, meaning larger windows of overlapping trinket procs, raid buffs, etc.

DP still brings up the rear. On a good day, you MAY see it catch up to SW/HA if you get lucky proc's during CDs, but it's just mechanically never going to be on the same level in this tier or in 5.2. And those good days where it may catch SW/HA are available in patchwerk fights or sims, not in reality. In reality, burst is needed on demand far more than minor/RNG bumps in sustained. Again, taking Horridon, the name of the game is on-demand burst, not "maybe I'll get an extra TV on the add".

But if you just want to LFR or have fun or whatever, then none of that matters, I guess. Just depends on what you consider fun...Me? I like killing things/progressing on heroic. It's far more fun than farming LFR where there is approximately zero chance of failure (and, commensurately, zero chance of excitement or sense of accomplishment).

[Revvo]

I get what you mean, but you're not going to have 4 piece T15 for Horridon progression. Not regular, and doubtfully for heroic, so. Not to mention with 2 piece HoW will hit even harder than before with the proc.

[Deleted]

But if you just want to LFR or have fun or whatever, then none of that matters, I guess. Just depends on what you consider fun...Me? I like killing things/progressing on heroic. It's far more fun than farming LFR where there is approximately zero chance of failure (and, commensurately, zero chance of excitement or sense of accomplishment).

not to go too far off topic, but last night, I had 4 wipes in TOES LFR, although that wasn't due to DPS, but rather because our tanks died all the time or because people ninjapulled.

[anaxie]

SW wings gives another benefit for longer duration over HA and DP next patch. One word

Capacitate.

[Nairobi]

not to go too far off topic, but last night, I had 4 wipes in TOES LFR, although that wasn't due to DPS, but rather because our tanks died all the time or because people ninjapulled.

At the risk of stirring up a large shitstorm here, I'd like to hypothesize on why that is:

1) It's very late in the tier, as in new raid in 1 week. This means that most experienced raiders/players have not had their toons (mains) in LFR in quite some time.
2) Those experienced players that DO still participate in LFR are likely on alts or offspec roles.
3) You were doing LFR late in the week, and on a weekend. The majority of progression raiders that DO still do LFR opt to complete it early in the week (to take advantage of the valor buff).
4) Additionally to 3, most of the average "weekend warriors" play...on the weekend.

Obviously, the above blanket statements are egregiously sweeping and generalized, and certainly do not pertain to each, individual situation. It is simply an observation based on the masses. By and large, LFRs done on a Tues/Weds either right before or right after prime raid time, are the smoothest and quickest runs.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you do LFR late in a tier, on a weekend, you're gonna have a bad time.

[anaxie]

At the risk of stirring up a large shitstorm here, I'd like to hypothesize on why that is:

1) It's very late in the tier, as in new raid in 1 week. This means that most experienced raiders/players have not had their toons (mains) in LFR in quite some time.
2) Those experienced players that DO still participate in LFR are likely on alts or offspec roles.
3) You were doing LFR late in the week, and on a weekend. The majority of progression raiders that DO still do LFR opt to complete it early in the week (to take advantage of the valor buff).
4) Additionally to 3, most of the average "weekend warriors" play...on the weekend.

Obviously, the above blanket statements are egregiously sweeping and generalized, and certainly do not pertain to each, individual situation. It is simply an observation based on the masses. By and large, LFRs done on a Tues/Weds either right before or right after prime raid time, are the smoothest and quickest runs.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you do LFR late in a tier, on a weekend, you're gonna have a bad time.

And next patch we get a chance at raid pets <money> , Rare mounts <BOING>, and consumables / shards. Blizzard sure knows how to keep the top raiding running LFR. Smart move. Now gimme dem failbags FUUUUU LFR loot.

[Nairobi]

And next patch we get a chance at raid pets <money> , Rare mounts <BOING>, and consumables / shards. Blizzard sure knows how to keep the top raiding running LFR. Smart move. Now gimme dem failbags FUUUUU LFR loot.

Right? I agree it's nice, as I MT everything now, and hardly ever get to play ret outside of dailies/old raid farming. 5.2 LFR will keep me interested for longer, both with the valor and with the "consolation prize" bags. It's ironic and backwards, but I'll be praying for failbags and not the 502 crap. The times, they are a-changing.

[Naifatzadepix]

wings 2 min sa all the way

[Strear]

So, finally, the glyphed version of Sanctified Wrath could be a great option for BGs, RBGs (maybe arenas ?).