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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Hughes View Post
    His dislike of non-orcs, how aggressive and borderlined bat shit crazy hatred towards the Alliance shortly after leaving Outland (Suppose you could chalk that up as Blizz trying to make a good impression for Horde players).
    Which are all things the elements don't give a crap about.

  2. #122
    Dreadlord Noah37's Avatar
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    People are so quick to write off Cataclysm. Thrall had to leave and had to make very quick rational decisions. At the time, the world was threatened by the most powerful force they had ever seen. Deathwing had emerged and seemed unstoppable. The Horde needed a leader that was filled with military might and could lead with an iron first. Garrosh was the leader they needed at that time. However, once Deathwing was vanquished and a brief window of peace came about, that is when Garrosh's flaws began to show. Thrall made the correct decision at the time, and Thrall helped to save the world.

    Now, I don't think Thrall would even want to be Warchief if it was offered to him. However, to cast out and exile Thrall for this is just wrong, for making calculated decision he most likely knew would cause people to dislike him, and for saving the world. It reminds me a lot of the end of the Dark Knight.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Noahsmith37 View Post
    People are so quick to write off Cataclysm. Thrall had to leave and had to make very quick rational decisions. At the time, the world was threatened by the most powerful force they had ever seen. Deathwing had emerged and seemed unstoppable. The Horde needed a leader that was filled with military might and could lead with an iron first. Garrosh was the leader they needed at that time. However, once Deathwing was vanquished and a brief window of peace came about, that is when Garrosh's flaws began to show. Thrall made the correct decision at the time, and Thrall helped to save the world.

    Now, I don't think Thrall would even want to be Warchief if it was offered to him. However, to cast out and exile Thrall for this is just wrong, for making calculated decision he most likely knew would cause people to dislike him, and for saving the world. It reminds me a lot of the end of the Dark Knight.
    Which is exactly how i feel this should end up.

    Thrall's exile should in a way be voluntary. After the siege, the Alliance accuses Thrall of what happened and demands a form of justice, as they obviously would not kill him, and would be hesitant to imprison him, after what he did in Cata.

    Just because he gets exiled, does not mean he is done. He can just as easily be a mentor to the Orcish people, or dare I say it, become full fledged neutral, and interact with both Ally and Horde playable characters.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Just like how Ner'zhul should of seen Kil'Jaeden manipulate the Orcs and him for his own ends. Same with Drek'thar forseeing other things etc etc etc. Oh wait they didn't. Excuse my snarky attitude but going "LOL FARSIGHT" is not a good excuse. It's not easy to see the future.
    Thus the "/silly" that I added, if you didn't notice it.

    Ner'zhul didn't see it because Kil'Jaeden, AKA The Deceiver, was blocking his ability to commune with the Spirits until it was too late. Drek'thar did foresee the future, but again, too late. I'm talking about actively speaking to the Spirits to get a good read on what's going to happen, which none of them did.

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  5. #125
    Garrosh wasn't even Thrall's first choice. Cairne was, but the orcs wouldn't follow anyone but an orc and the Horde would fall apart. Thrall's second choice was Dranosh Sourfang, but he died. Thrall picked Garrosh because the orcs wouldn't reject him as Warchief. Cairne, Eitrigg, and Vol'jin were supposed to advise Garrosh and keep him in check. It's not Thrall's fault that they completely failed to control Garrosh or that Garrosh ignores them.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Garrosh wasn't even Thrall's first choice. Cairne was, but the orcs wouldn't follow anyone but an orc and the Horde would fall apart. Thrall's second choice was Dranosh Sourfang, but he died. Thrall picked Garrosh because the orcs wouldn't reject him as Warchief. Cairne, Eitrigg, and Vol'jin were supposed to advise Garrosh and keep him in check. It's not Thrall's fault that they completely failed to control Garrosh or that Garrosh ignores them.
    No.

    Thrall didnt choose Cairne or Vol'Jin because it would upset the Orcs. Just the Orcs. And he didn't want to put in Eitrigg or Saurfang cause they were too old. For a temporary position. And what does he do? Put the worst possible candidate in position. Why? Because he did good in Northrend (Even though it was Saurfangs doing), and his family name. Oh yeah, and because he was aggressive and wouldn't be passive to the Alliance.

    So recap, Thrall puts an inexperienced, angry Hellscream in as Warchief, instead of the obvious choices, just to appease the Orcs. Who couldn't have seen any of this happening? He put the values of Orcs above the values of the Horde. Why does everyone defend him so adamantly?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    No.

    Thrall didnt choose Cairne or Vol'Jin because it would upset the Orcs. Just the Orcs. And he didn't want to put in Eitrigg or Saurfang cause they were too old. For a temporary position. And what does he do? Put the worst possible candidate in position. Why? Because he did good in Northrend (Even though it was Saurfangs doing), and his family name. Oh yeah, and because he was aggressive and wouldn't be passive to the Alliance.

    So recap, Thrall puts an inexperienced, angry Hellscream in as Warchief, instead of the obvious choices, just to appease the Orcs. Who couldn't have seen any of this happening? He put the values of Orcs above the values of the Horde. Why does everyone defend him so adamantly?
    Did you even read my post? "Cairne was, but the orcs wouldn't follow anyone but an orc..." "Thrall picked Garrosh because the orcs wouldn't reject him as Warchief."

    Just dismiss the fact that Cairne, Vol'jin, and Eitrigg were supposed to keep Garrosh in check. They failed.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    *whines about orcs*
    i think garrosh should rip your head off your weak tiny shoulders and throw it into the next dung pile. garrosh is a cool orcish leader, he spices up all that boring thrall / jaina peace-between-alliance-and-horde bullshit.

    the game/lore is called WARcraft, not LOVEcraft. bah, puny weaklings.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Flatspriest View Post
    How was Thrall supposed to see into the future?
    I think it was pretty obvious from everything that happened in Wotlk that Garrosh wanted a full blown war with the alliance.

    On that note Thrall could of very well decided that the only way peace would happen is if one side were to completely annihilate the other and he could of very well seen Garrosh as the hordes best option for success.

    Either way even as alliance I don't think thrall should be exiled though it would make for some good storytelling in the future I think blizzard would be better off just pushing out a final legion expansion and closing the book on warcraft itself and that isn't going to happen until the horde/alliance unite.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 12:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Linzo View Post
    good luck exiling the dude that worked with dragon aspects and saved the entire planet

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 12:00 AM ----------



    also this.

    It's Thrall's Horde.
    Even before thrall put down the mantle of warchief he had doubts that it was his horde, many of them craved war/vengeance, he knew it was the will of the orcish people even though it was not his own.

    Then again the Orc's don't make up the entire horde and their were plenty of races under the horde banner that did want peace so maybe thralls problem was simply that his own race was to defiant.

  10. #130
    To an extent, Garrosh's advisors did fail him. Caire jumped the gun and accused Garrosh of crimes he didn't commit, resulting in the duel that lead to his death. Vol'jin threatened to kill Garrosh, and while he's seen arguing with Garrosh, I don't think we ever saw him trying to reasonably discuss things with him. Eitrigg doesn't seem to do much but keep his head down and go with the flow. But that doesn't change the fact that Garrosh's sins are still first and foremost his own.

  11. #131
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    And what is Far Sight? It's the ability to SEE FAR. Not see the future. Velen is the only one in the entire franchise credited with the powers of being able to see the future.
    No, not in WoW. You are taking the name to literally. Farseers in WoW and a lot of games get visions of the future, useful info, or insight. In ToW he head a Vision of water destroying Org.

  12. #132
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Did you even read my post? "Cairne was, but the orcs wouldn't follow anyone but an orc..." "Thrall picked Garrosh because the orcs wouldn't reject him as Warchief."

    Just dismiss the fact that Cairne, Vol'jin, and Eitrigg were supposed to keep Garrosh in check. They failed.
    To the best of my knowledge he never considered Cairne in the shattering.

    Dranosh was his first choice but he was dead, and everyone else was too old.

    Non orcs weren't even considered.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    To the best of my knowledge he never considered Cairne in the shattering.

    Dranosh was his first choice but he was dead, and everyone else was too old.

    Non orcs weren't even considered.
    His first thought was Cairne. His oldest friend here in Kalimdor, Cairne and he thought alike on many things. He was wise and ruled his people well. But Thrall, like Cairne himself, knew there were those who thought him old-fashioned and out of touch with what was needed. If there was slight unrest in the form of the Grimtotem in Cairne’s own city, then there would surely be unrest and murmuring if Thrall appointed an elderly tauren to lead the Horde now. (The Shattering)

    Thrall actually describes Garrosh's role as being a figurehead position. Garrosh isn't supposed to have complete dominance over the Horde.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Huh, I stand corrected.

    Or sit rather.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    That's a very good question. I personally think he should have stayed dead. Waking up with a bit of a headache and forgetting where he left his Steam Tank keys undermined Arthas's fall.
    Well, he got hit in the face with a chunk of ice and was left for dead. It's not like he was disembowled.

    And frankly, Muradin returning did nothing to undermine showing just how far Arthas would push the boundaries. He left his best friend and mentor in a cave of ice to die (or assumed dead) and treated it like it was no big thing.

    Muradin coming back doesn't undo any of that.

  16. #136
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
    Well, he got hit in the face with a chunk of ice and was left for dead. It's not like he was disembowled.

    And frankly, Muradin returning did nothing to undermine showing just how far Arthas would push the boundaries. He left his best friend and mentor in a cave of ice to die (or assumed dead) and treated it like it was no big thing.

    Muradin coming back doesn't undo any of that.
    I disagree, there's a greater degree of finality with him being dead that's just not there with 'oh he woke up with amnesia. Plus, they didn't really DO anything with him, I mean he showed up on the gunship but other than that we never saw him fighting the scourge.''

    As for Thrall, while I don't think he should be exiled, I think he shouldn't be 'in charge' of the Horde or in a position of governance anymore, even in the Earthen ring.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  17. #137
    It was clearly a retcon, but I'm ok with it. Muradin's speech at the end of the Shadowmourne quest was great, and it's cool seeing him back in action in Ironforge, though I hope he gets a more active role coming up.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
    Well, he got hit in the face with a chunk of ice and was left for dead. It's not like he was disembowled.

    And frankly, Muradin returning did nothing to undermine showing just how far Arthas would push the boundaries. He left his best friend and mentor in a cave of ice to die (or assumed dead) and treated it like it was no big thing.

    Muradin coming back doesn't undo any of that.
    There are two interpretations of what happened when Arthas took Frostmourne;

    1. The ice shard striking Muradin was an accident. Arthas has lost his soul by taking up Frostmourne, but he still has a goal; vengeance on Mal'ganis. He's acting as a completely rational entity now; Muradin could be a valuable asset against Mal'ganis if he lives, and if he's alive and unconscious, Arthas can't divine Muradin's mental state to tell how long he's going to be having a nap for, or whether he has amnesia. The only reason he'd leave him behind is because lugging a corpse back to base would get in the way of stabbing Mal'ganis.

    2. The ice shard striking Muradin was intentional, on Ner'zhul's part. Ner'zhul's crafty, and Muradin's pretty obviously a threat to Arthas's ascension to Lich King. Ner'zhul is being very, very careless by not having Arthas, who's by now most likely under the control of Frostmourne, check the body and finish him off if he isn't dead. Because this came back to bite him on the ass in no minor fashion.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    It was clearly a retcon, but I'm ok with it. Muradin's speech at the end of the Shadowmourne quest was great, and it's cool seeing him back in action in Ironforge, though I hope he gets a more active role coming up.
    It was a retcon in that it continued where the scene left off-no prior informationw as altered-only the player's interpretation of that information was.

    Which is more of plot twist than a retcon.

  20. #140
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just dismiss the fact that Cairne, Vol'jin, and Eitrigg were supposed to keep Garrosh in check. They failed.
    Shouldn't the fact that they couldn't control Garrosh have been evidence to Thrall that picking Garrosh was a bad idea?


    I'm not sure why some people are going on about Shaman "far sight". The fact is that at the end of the day that Thrall either knew Garrosh wouldn't be ideal or was passed the idiot ball. After all that Garrosh had pulled prior to Cata and the fact Vol'jin and Cairne had objected kinda goes to show that if Thrall seriously did not know then he was an idiot.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-02-24 at 08:03 AM.

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