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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    That good cleave was a particular play style that used GoSac. For fights where you can cleave. Situational.

    For single target, you could use a pet and do comparable damage as GoSac while having nothing to cleave. I believe a little less. If they wanted to buff our single target damage with a pet a bit, I'm all for it.

    No need to wreck Mastery/GoSac.
    You can't wreck one without the other. If you go pet, you go Haste, people just aren't going to reforge/regem per-encounter over a talent.

    I realize not all the numbers are in, it's just GCs comment that Gosac should be rare irks me.
    They balance the class around having pets, the problems arose because of the absence of pets broke the scaling, and the only way to fix it would be to give all specs Demo's Mastery, and that would potentially break every other spell we use. Okay, they didn't anticipate everyone switching to Sac, which is their own fault for underestimating how fickle players are - something they've done time and again - but they know full well the overbearing reason people use Sac is purely because it sims the best in high end gear. "Preference" is often stated as a reason by players, but they just regard that as "Mechanar syndrome", when that preference is driven by efficiency, and following the top simming/performing spec is pretty damn efficient.

    I honestly wonder how many players complaining about Sac being nerfed are genuinely going to "miss" the playstyle of 'same rotation without concern for pet control', how many genuinely give a shit whether they have a pet or not, and how many are just purely concerned about the fact they're getting nerfed.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-02-26 at 11:55 PM.

  2. #82
    I see no reason to wreck anything.

    Yes, people will reforge and respec for different encounters.

    Yes. Give pets better scaling with our stats and encounter mechanics. Sounds good.

    Sac is fun because it rewards clever and timely target switching and resource management. That is why I will miss it.

    I have no problem playing with a pet. It's not terribly compelling this expac other then watching out for new bugs in the environment.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2013-02-27 at 12:04 AM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I see no reason to wreck anything.

    Yes, people will reforge and respec for different encounters.

    Yes. Give pets better scaling with our stats and encounter mechanics. Sounds good.
    Srsly, don't understand why they don't just do this.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They balance the class around having pets, the problems arose because of the absence of pets broke the scaling, and the only way to fix it would be to give all specs Demo's Mastery, and that would potentially break every other spell we use. Okay, they didn't anticipate everyone switching to Sac, which is their own fault for underestimating how fickle players are - something they've done time and again - but they know full well the overbearing reason people use Sac is purely because it sims the best in high end gear. "Preference" is often stated as a reason by players, but they just regard that as "Mechanar syndrome", when that preference is driven by efficiency, and following the top simming/performing spec is pretty damn efficient.
    If you want tier 5 of talents to be a choice of prefference, then pets have to scale with mastery somehow.

    Or if you want another way around it, you can give pets a chance to generate one emberbit on hit (maybe with a few seconds icd so that faster hitting pets dont generate more). Similar to demo. This would give a benefit that would encourage using pets. Atm using a pet is just like having a permanent dot on one target, which doesn't add much gameplay. Maybe some use it for the RP or for the looks.

    Edit: or you can just make Havoc not be affected by gosac, just like fire and brimstone is not affected by it, so that Havoc gives the same benefit with or without pet.
    Last edited by darlissa; 2013-02-27 at 12:07 AM.

  5. #85
    It's odd to say that GoSac doesn't use a pet.


    There he is...in a heap on the floor. I "used" him.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I see no reason to wreck anything.

    Yes, people will reforge and respec for different encounters.
    No, they don't. A miniscule proportion of players will do it in exceptional circumstances to get that last 5% of a boss's health off, but outside that it doesn't just happen. I can understand some players are blinkered by their own experience in their guilds, but this is one case I'm more than happy to invoke an majority and say it [regemming/reforging] doesn't happen.

    Yes. Give pets better scaling with our stats and encounter mechanics. Sounds good.
    Would be nice, but again, we're presently balanced around their limited scaling. The domino effect of unintended consequences of rebalancing every spell to accomodate the extra damage from our pets would be mind boggling (think of the PvPers!). I can already see -OMG DEY NERF ALL R SPELLS- posts, followed by months of "remember the 12% nerf!"

    Sac is fun because it rewards clever and timely target switching and resource management. That is why I will miss it.
    You do exactly the same thing, regardless of whether you have a pet. Hell, if you have a pet you can actually do one more additional thing with clever and timely target switching ._.

    I have no problem playing with a pet. It's not terribly compelling this expac other then watching out for new bugs in the environment.
    And absense is compelling? I don't get that at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 12:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    If you want tier 5 of talents to be a choice of prefference, then pets have to scale with mastery somehow.

    Or if you want another way around it, you can give pets a chance to generate one emberbit on hit (maybe with a few seconds icd so that faster hitting pets dont generate more). Similar to demo. This would give a benefit that would encourage using pets. Atm using a pet is just like having a permanent dot on one target, which doesn't add much gameplay. Maybe some use it for the RP or for the looks.
    Or because I'm used to having a pet for the last 6 years and it's something I miss on every other class I play when I think 'Hey I can keep some damage going on the boss here to whittle it down while I deal with adds'. Sometimes, I might even make use of their utility; knockback on Ragnaros springs to mind.

    Edit: or you can just make Havoc not be affected by gosac, just like fire and brimstone is not affected by it, so that Havoc gives the same benefit with or without pet.
    That should have always been the case.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-02-27 at 12:36 AM.

  7. #87
    Were not talking about min/maxxing. Were talking about reforging for a different play style. With a pet or without. Different styles of fights. People will even swap in more or less useful gear.

    Since they are taking the time to balance things, looking at the way pets damage scales and interacts with our stats sounds like a good idea. Not sure why anyone would disagree. I'm getting that you just don't like people not using pets? That's fine.

    The nerfs are making the spec much less palatable. That is not compelling.

    I'm just hoping for the best for my favorite spec and explaining why it is my favorite spec. It really isn't out of dire hatred for pets.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2013-02-27 at 01:26 AM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Would be nice, but again, we're presently balanced around their limited scaling. The domino effect of unintended consequences of rebalancing every spell to accomodate the extra damage from our pets would be mind boggling (think of the PvPers!). I can already see -OMG DEY NERF ALL R SPELLS- posts, followed by months of "remember the 12% nerf!"
    Thats bullshit and you know it. Blizzard changes numbers consistently and whenever a new patch is relased a big list of changes to mechanics and game figures is included. So if you improve pet scaling you trade one set of changes to adjust current numbers against permanent changes to keep different classes and specs in line at all times during an expension.

    I am sure if you improve pet handling and scaling many warlock players would accept a short-term nerf because they would know their way of playing the game will be competitive in the future.

  9. #89
    Does anyone have some solid math on wether or not gosac is still the way to go? I mean it's all speculation at this point, unless simulationcraft doesn't release a new build which we can sim our characters with, no one can say for sure what will sim the highest. and by the way, it's about time they release that build, patch is getting closer and closer and people would like to know about those sims.

  10. #90
    Well, GoSac was only a bit ahead when Brusalk made this topic, I think around 1k DPS ahead of the GoSup Observer.
    And now with the additional 5% nerf to GoSac it is likely that GoSup Observer pulled ahead in single target fights.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Thats bullshit and you know it. Blizzard changes numbers consistently and whenever a new patch is relased a big list of changes to mechanics and game figures is included. So if you improve pet scaling you trade one set of changes to adjust current numbers against permanent changes to keep different classes and specs in line at all times during an expension.

    I am sure if you improve pet handling and scaling many warlock players would accept a short-term nerf because they would know their way of playing the game will be competitive in the future.
    That's the point though, Warlocks in PvP aren't competitive right now, nerfing our entire arsenal would only make burst and switching worse than it already is leaving little scope for future improvement. Again though, such a substantial0 change like this would risk unintended consequences that aren't easily predicted and I really don't think it's something they'd leave themselves open to mid-expansion.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-02-27 at 10:33 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    Well, GoSac was only a bit ahead when Brusalk made this topic, I think around 1k DPS ahead of the GoSup Observer.
    And now with the additional 5% nerf to GoSac it is likely that GoSup Observer pulled ahead in single target fights.
    Yea, you're right. But still, there's no way of telling exactly how it will be without some solid math, that's the thing here. Sure, most likely GoSup Observer will be ahead now, I'd like to see some calculations on this though before making any real statements.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That's the point though, Warlocks in PvP aren't competitive right now, nerfing our entire arsenal would only make burst and switching worse than it already is leaving little scope for future improvement. Again though, such a substantial0 change like this would risk unintended consequences that aren't easily predicted and I really don't think it's something they'd leave themselves open to mid-expansion.
    What are you talking about? This is not brain surgery. Why should giving pets a little scaling damage buff and nerfing one two spell coefficients in return change our whole arsenal? And why would it hurt so much in PvP? Our problems in PvP are definitly not related to our damage output. Can you please stop making something excessively perilous of a small change that would shift the ratio of pet and master damage a little bit to prevent pets becoming to marginal in the future?!

  14. #94
    It's supposed to be balance adjustments. so...balance them.

    GCs tweets show they are trying to do the opposite. Make them imbalanced so that one choice is a no choice. Unless that particular fight is so abysmally bad for pets that you are force to take it anyway.

    Pets, no pets. Whatev. I'll adjust. But in nerfing something don't forget the other nerfs that have gone before it and take them into account. I'm thinking of the stupid Chaosbolt DOT.

    Destro needed a bit of help to begin with. It is in a worse place now. Hopefully, all this discussion will be moot and well see a readjustment of the numbers. I do not think it is a waste of time to discuss it, however. Discussions here contributed to keeping the extra ember with SB kill shots. That HAS been fixed on PTR ya?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    What are you talking about? This is not brain surgery. Why should giving pets a little scaling damage buff and nerfing one two spell coefficients in return change our whole arsenal? And why would it hurt so much in PvP? Our problems in PvP are definitly not related to our damage output. Can you please stop making something excessively perilous of a small change that would shift the ratio of pet and master damage a little bit to prevent pets becoming to marginal in the future?!
    What? Because removing the pet and replacing it with +%damage increases to certain spells was all that needed to happen, and wouldn't have any impact on PvP at all... OH WAIT!

    Now look, it is absolutely clear there that were a lot of unintended consequences of implementing this ability which went through multiple iterations before it even went live because of a domino effect of impacts down the line. The class is built, designed, and balanced around using pets, removing those pets or changing how they work fundamentally alters the package as a whole and is not unlikely to have unforseen consequences - it already happened over and over again during Beta, so it's clearly not that simple at all.

  16. #96
    I would like to understand the reason for balancing our class always be based on the nerf and not improving ... GoSac is the best option? Ok, but why not improve the pets rather than nerf GoSac? The bloodfear is too good or the other tier 4 talents are crap? I'm surprised they have not nerfed the Kil'jaeden's Cunning too.
    I stopped playing wow for 1,5 year due to constant nerfs and changes (for the worse) in our class and I'm getting bored again.
    5.2 will be bad for our class in pvp and pve, but it seems that the GC is loving the changes. Incidentally, since the Burning Crusade our class can not spend 3 months without a nerf or any radical change that forces us to play with a spec, then another, then another, etc ... This sucks!
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  17. #97
    What baffles me is that they would nerf Sac for Affliction, acknowledge it, and buff Haunt to compensate. Whereas they nerf Sac for Destro, and also revert some buffs it had at the same time. At this point it just seems like they actively trying to keep Affliction better

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What? Because removing the pet and replacing it with +%damage increases to certain spells was all that needed to happen, and wouldn't have any impact on PvP at all... OH WAIT!
    Yes, you are right but no need for sarcasm here. GoSac has almost no impact in PvP in terms of balance and gameplay. You can play all three specs with or without a pet competitivly and it makes no substantial difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Now look, it is absolutely clear there that were a lot of unintended consequences of implementing this ability which went through multiple iterations before it even went live because of a domino effect of impacts down the line. The class is built, designed, and balanced around using pets, removing those pets or changing how they work fundamentally alters the package as a whole and is not unlikely to have unforseen consequences - it already happened over and over again during Beta, so it's clearly not that simple at all.
    Sometimes when reading your comments i can hardly believe you are not a giant but very clever and inconspicuous troll. Let me explain it one more time:

    When you look at current single target SimCraft results you can see that GoSac Destro is a little bit ahead of GoSup with a 25% sacrifice buff and T14 heroic gear. At the PTR Blizzard nerfed GoSac down to 20% additional damage and therefor it became inferior in the actual content. But already with T15 heroic gear it was more than equal again as you can see in Brusalks results. The reason for this beheavior is MASTERY!! GoSac scales better with additional mastery rating than GoSup does. Same goes with Affliction but numbers are different here. So in the process of an addon you would have to adjust GoSac over and over again to bring it in line.

    Here comes my suggestion: Let affli and destro pets scale with mastery as demo already does. I am talking about small values here, about one-third of our primary mastery (would be 8% base value, see Mastery: Master Demonologist). In ilvl 506 gear i currently have 66.7% mastery and 15.7% haste. So this would be a 22% damage bonus to pets. When pets deal 15% of your overall damage this would result in about a 3% damage increase while using a pet, a value you can hardly notice in most situations and needs almost no compensation. But it would be enough to make pets competitive over the course of an addon.

    These are no complicated issues with large unexpected aftermath. We are talking about hardly more than a 40% damage buff in the last content, a number which can easily included in the simulations Blizzard and the community use to break down actual game mechanics. This is no voodoo stuff with unforseen and dangerous consequences, this is simple mathematics every computer can calculate in a straightforward time.

  19. #99
    I get what you're saying, you don't seem to get what I am saying though. At this stage of the game, when all the maths has been calculated on the assumption of Warlocks using pets - with the oversight of Mastery causing this problem for Sac - suddenly adding Mastery to pets will change our output to be much higher, and it will profoundly effect the stat weights they used to project where they want us to be (it puts Mastery ahead of Haste, we already know that).

    So, it isn't necessarily just a case of knocking x% off all our spells - it might be, sure - but they would have to double check everything from that damage, through mana costs and secondary resource generation, and the value of Mastery, because all those things were calculated on assumptions previously made under entirely different circumstances. With that in mind, if they did implement Demonology Mastery for all specs, you would probably see the value of Mastery cut rather than (or even as well as) a flat nerf to coefficients.

    Checking, testing and doing all that is no small ask in the middle of an expansion where people are already complaining that their gear is going to be 'useless' going into the next tier. It is a big deal, and no, you don't know what the full impact would be. It might well be small, but do you really think they want to go through all that only to hit Chaos Wave/Chaos Bolt QQ again?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I get what you're saying, you don't seem to get what I am saying though. At this stage of the game, when all the maths has been calculated on the assumption of Warlocks using pets - with the oversight of Mastery causing this problem for Sac - suddenly adding Mastery to pets will change our output to be much higher, and it will profoundly effect the stat weights they used to project where they want us to be (it puts Mastery ahead of Haste, we already know that).
    It really shouldn't be super complex. They already know how much extra dmg our pets are supposed to get from Crit and Haste. Just take that same value (assuming it is the same) and apply it to mastery. Then reduce pet attack damage by that percentage. Pets dont scale of any outside factors, so they should be fairly easy to tune up.

    That being said, I get that it's extra work, but I don't see how that's my/our problem. Bliz had 2 (3?) months of PTR and more of internal testing to sort out abilities. If they decide with 1 week to go that they want to completely realign how locks spec, they should put in the work to to it properly. If they don't have time to develop a 'right' solution, then just leave it alone and fix it properly down the road. It's the arbitrary, half-assed solution that they went with that people are pissed about.

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