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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    I would like to understand the reason for balancing our class always be based on the nerf and not improving ... GoSac is the best option? Ok, but why not improve the pets rather than nerf GoSac? The bloodfear is too good or the other tier 4 talents are crap? I'm surprised they have not nerfed the Kil'jaeden's Cunning too.
    I stopped playing wow for 1,5 year due to constant nerfs and changes (for the worse) in our class and I'm getting bored again.
    5.2 will be bad for our class in pvp and pve, but it seems that the GC is loving the changes. Incidentally, since the Burning Crusade our class can not spend 3 months without a nerf or any radical change that forces us to play with a spec, then another, then another, etc ... This sucks!
    You just described all pure dps classes, gg. BTW considering you haven't played wow in 1.5 years you don't really have room to talk about the state of the Warlock class. Considering in one patch it has gone from being the least played class in the game to one of the most played classes in the game (I believe it is in the top 3 classes played atm) Blizzard has obviously given the Warlock a lot of love.

    We have the top dps spec in the game right now, and the next patch doesn't seem to be changing that too much (Afflictions Sac nerf was made-up for with a buff to Haunt dmg), and Demonology Warlock got nothing but buffs. We are definitely more than alright.

    I think the real issue is that caster class and the people who would be otherwise attracted to Warlocks just aren't into playing with a pet. Tbh its the reason I've stayed away from hunter all these years, I prefer to play a class whose dps is by its own merit not whether some crappy ai can properly pull 30% of my dmg (hunter speaking), or 15-20% of my dps as a warlock.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Harekrsna View Post
    You just described all pure dps classes, gg. BTW considering you haven't played wow in 1.5 years you don't really have room to talk about the state of the Warlock class. Considering in one patch it has gone from being the least played class in the game to one of the most played classes in the game (I believe it is in the top 3 classes played atm) Blizzard has obviously given the Warlock a lot of love.

    We have the top dps spec in the game right now, and the next patch doesn't seem to be changing that too much (Afflictions Sac nerf was made-up for with a buff to Haunt dmg), and Demonology Warlock got nothing but buffs. We are definitely more than alright.

    I think the real issue is that caster class and the people who would be otherwise attracted to Warlocks just aren't into playing with a pet. Tbh its the reason I've stayed away from hunter all these years, I prefer to play a class whose dps is by its own merit not whether some crappy ai can properly pull 30% of my dmg (hunter speaking), or 15-20% of my dps as a warlock.
    I'm played wow for uninterrupted 5,5 years, stopped 1,5 year and now I'm playing for 4 months... sorry, but I have room to talk about anything in this game. You dont need to be rude. And warlocks still are one of the least played class in the game (only rogue is under us, if u dont know), so you are misinformed or malicious.
    I do not know if you are or were a good warlock, but believe me, I know very well my class. You don't need to be rude in your post or enter into nerd rage ... I have an opinion different from yours but it's not make me your enemy.
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  3. #103
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    I didn't understand this last change on Simcraft for Rain of Fire mana cost, it seems to be the same (75k) on Live and on PTR for me (or maybe this is a wart to avoid an error).

    Before :
    base_costs[ RESOURCE_MANA ] *= 1.0 + p -> spec.chaotic_energy -> effectN( 2 ).percent();

    After :
    base_costs[ RESOURCE_MANA ] *= 1.0 + ( ! p -> dbc.ptr ? p -> spec.chaotic_energy -> effectN( 2 ).percent() : 0 );
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I get what you're saying, you don't seem to get what I am saying though. At this stage of the game, when all the maths has been calculated on the assumption of Warlocks using pets - with the oversight of Mastery causing this problem for Sac - suddenly adding Mastery to pets will change our output to be much higher, and it will profoundly effect the stat weights they used to project where they want us to be (it puts Mastery ahead of Haste, we already know that).

    So, it isn't necessarily just a case of knocking x% off all our spells - it might be, sure - but they would have to double check everything from that damage, through mana costs and secondary resource generation, and the value of Mastery, because all those things were calculated on assumptions previously made under entirely different circumstances. With that in mind, if they did implement Demonology Mastery for all specs, you would probably see the value of Mastery cut rather than (or even as well as) a flat nerf to coefficients.

    Checking, testing and doing all that is no small ask in the middle of an expansion where people are already complaining that their gear is going to be 'useless' going into the next tier. It is a big deal, and no, you don't know what the full impact would be. It might well be small, but do you really think they want to go through all that only to hit Chaos Wave/Chaos Bolt QQ again?
    No, simply no. You are excessively overestimating the extend and significance of such a change. Read my post, i have calculated it in round terms, were are talking about damage increases not greater than 5% in the current situation. Such incremental changes can and are implemented frequently, you do not have to rewrite the whole game for this reason, just look at the 5.2 patchnotes. Whatever, read my post, i have addressed and explained everything there. Im out!

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    I didn't understand this last change on Simcraft for Rain of Fire mana cost, it seems to be the same (75k) on Live and on PTR for me (or maybe this is a wart to avoid an error).

    Before :
    base_costs[ RESOURCE_MANA ] *= 1.0 + p -> spec.chaotic_energy -> effectN( 2 ).percent();

    After :
    base_costs[ RESOURCE_MANA ] *= 1.0 + ( ! p -> dbc.ptr ? p -> spec.chaotic_energy -> effectN( 2 ).percent() : 0 );
    It's kind of ironic that after 3 pages of me not saying anything in this thread that I'd respond to a simcraft code post, but anyway :P

    The second line (after) is giving RoF a differing mana cost in 2 situations:

    The difference is when the sim is set up to use the PTR database for spelldata instead of the live database for spelldata.

    If it's set up to use the live database, it's exactly as before.
    If it's set up to use the PTR database, it's a 1.0x multiplier which effectively does nothing.

    It's a guess as I haven't actually looked, but it's possible that someone changed either in the PTR code the base mana cost of RoF to 75K (on blizzards' end), or there has been some sort of database change in the backend of Simc that made that line obsolete.

    In either case it looks like there's some difference between the live and ptr database values for RoF that warrents the change.

  6. #106
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    Well, I don't really need to say anything more than what's already been said, you all did a fantastic job of that as well as vocalizing our outrage. In short, all these nerfs straight up make me miffed. I understand we were top in 5.1 (I didn't play aff for any raid and still beat aff locks) and 5.2 may be a speed bump, the problem I have is that blizzard literally keeps flip flopping about what they want to do with us. First they said (by they I mean GC) "Chaos bolt will not be nerfed, if people can't interrupt it it's their fault [something along those lines]) yet here we are, going from 25% to 15%.

    Further, the dot tick shit is another abomination that should have never happened. I think the reason a majority of QQ comes from chaos bolt is because it takes up 35% of the screen and when players see a GIANTGREENFUCKBALLOFDOOMSHITBLAST they automatically point to it. Ya'll check a mages frostbolt recently? Or anything they throw? As much if not more damage. We are being targeted because people don't understand warlocks and what we have to do to keep consistent dps. Burning embers are also a problem (well, not as much as in 5.1) in terms of keeping / generating. I'd be fine with the nerfs if they let us keep them out of combat for longer than 20 seconds, let us keep all of them (fuck give us a glyph IDC), something - anything! In accordance with that, I echo what people are saying and have BoH removed from GoSac, yes, it's a great talent and really is one of the reason lock dps is so high on add fights - but if something needs to give make it that.

    To touch on what Blizz's / GC's PoV on our class, I understand we are a pet class - but in that same vein we use OUR pets to do OUR bidding and bend them to OUR will. How is sacrificing them still not "using" it? Just because we don't have a pet standing in shit or getting killed or despawning when OOR we should be penalized for it? Buff pet damage OR help them grant us a resource. Make them spec symbiotic, depending on the spec the pets damage helps you build your resource or something of that nature. I've been stacking mastery right now and I really do not want to reforge my shit per fight to stay relevant, that's both cumbersome and ridiculous from a design perspective. I love destro and will remain destro and persevere like I have been since BC, it's nothing new. Warlocks are good one patch, bad the next, good, then bad. It's a sick cyclical cycle they put us through and the tough ones remain while others qq and reroll - fuck em I say.

    We take these nerfs with a smile and turn the other cheek, it's what we have been doing and will continue to do. All we can hope to do is voice our opinion and hope they don't fall on deaf ears (which 95% of the time they do and blizz listens to qq'ers anyways). At the end of the day I want to play how I want to play. Blizzard could find a way to enhance the synergy of each spec with the pets but they are going about it back asswards by nerfing talents that don't need to be.

    If anything, we could all be wrong and this is blizz's way of saying "Hey, we got you green fire - isn''t that enough?"

    /rant - it's been a long day...

  7. #107
    Is this another nurf? from front page:

    Destruction
    Conflagrate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.
    Immolate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.

  8. #108
    High Overlord crimsonhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekromonde View Post
    Is this another nurf? from front page:

    Destruction
    Conflagrate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.
    Immolate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.
    You read correctly sir,'tis another nerf...

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekromonde View Post
    Is this another nurf? from front page:

    Destruction
    Conflagrate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.
    Immolate damage and SP scaling reduced by 4%.
    Yes, it seems to be another nerf, after the earlier nerfs to Immo and Conflag. I think only the Incinerate buff is still standing this way.
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  10. #110
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    Isn't that just the nerf of the buff, from +20% to +15% ?

    Live : 150% sp http://www.wowdb.com/spells/17962-conflagrate
    After 20% buff : 180% sp
    After nerf to the buff = 15% buff : 172.5% sp
    Last edited by Zumzumzum; 2013-02-28 at 12:36 AM.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Isn't that just the nerf of the buff, from +20% to +15% ?

    Live : 150% sp http://www.wowdb.com/spells/17962-conflagrate
    After 20% buff : 180% sp
    After nerf to the buff = 15% buff : 172.5% sp
    Pretty sure that you're correct and that it's just the 5% nerf to the original bonus damage.

  12. #112
    Super Moderator xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Isn't that just the nerf of the buff, from +20% to +15% ?

    Live : 150% sp http://www.wowdb.com/spells/17962-conflagrate
    After 20% buff : 180% sp
    After nerf to the buff = 15% buff : 172.5% sp
    Oh, my bad, the front page said 4% nerf, so I figured it was just a further adjustment, not the 5% nerf we'd allready heard about.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Harekrsna View Post
    You just described all pure dps classes, gg. BTW considering you haven't played wow in 1.5 years you don't really have room to talk about the state of the Warlock class. Considering in one patch it has gone from being the least played class in the game to one of the most played classes in the game (I believe it is in the top 3 classes played atm) Blizzard has obviously given the Warlock a lot of love.

    We have the top dps spec in the game right now, and the next patch doesn't seem to be changing that too much (Afflictions Sac nerf was made-up for with a buff to Haunt dmg), and Demonology Warlock got nothing but buffs. We are definitely more than alright.

    I think the real issue is that caster class and the people who would be otherwise attracted to Warlocks just aren't into playing with a pet. Tbh its the reason I've stayed away from hunter all these years, I prefer to play a class whose dps is by its own merit not whether some crappy ai can properly pull 30% of my dmg (hunter speaking), or 15-20% of my dps as a warlock.
    We are not the top dps specc arcane mages and windwalkers sim higher than us. So your comment is faulty. If blizzard considers affliction does too high dmg reduce the dpg output but not by nurfing GoSac a talent that the community likes and prefers. There are numerous similar talents ( in a sense of mandatory in all other classes and specs) and this was considered mandatory only for pve raiding for affliction primarily and destro secondary.

    Warlocks are not a pet class and shouldnt be considered as one as someone else stated above. There are equal arguments of playing petless as much as playing with a pet. We have a whole spec (demonology that revolves around pets). Affliction revolves around dots and destro around fast casts (not exactly nowadays situation but anyhow thats a different matter).

    5-10 reduction in PetSac is acceptable 20 % is an overkill.

  14. #114
    I hope it's ok if I use this post to discuss the Destruction APL in Simcraft Brulsak? (as the thread is using the APL in order to try to find out which Grimoire to take next patch)
    The latest simcraft build had an update to the different APLs for each spec included for the new T15H profile. I tried using that new destruction APL with the simc-510-10 version for the live server and got a dps decrease (mainly because the line to cast CB if we are low on mana was removed and as suchthe sim is now witing from time to time doing nothing until mana is back). So assuming we have enough manareg that this does not happen next tier at the start of the tier we will have ~T14H Gear and as such I will use the old APL as a starting point for optimization.
    Since last week I was trying to improve the Destruction APL (thought Destruction will be the easiest to improve). As I don't have that much time because of work at the moment I was not able to finish and still have a few problems which I could not solve atm. So I decided to post in the hope that somebody will be interested to improve the APL to make a better use of our ressources and as a consequence give us a more realistic picture.
    All of my sims were done using the T14H profiles in the simc-510-10 version with the following options: 10k Iterations, World Lag Low, 450sec, 20% Variation, Patchwerk Fight, Player Skill Elite.
    This does not include the changes on the ptr, but these changes should have no influence on ressource management. You still want to use the ressources when they have maximum effect (so mostly during procs).

    Original APL:
    Code:
    actions.precombat=flask,type=warm_sun
    actions.precombat+=/food,type=mogu_fish_stew
    actions.precombat+=/dark_intent,if=!aura.spell_power_multiplier.up
    actions.precombat+=/summon_pet
    actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
    actions.precombat+=/jade_serpent_potion
    
    actions=curse_of_the_elements,if=debuff.magic_vulnerability.down
    actions+=/use_item,name=shaskin_gloves
    actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/blood_fury
    actions+=/dark_soul
    actions+=/service_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled
    actions+=/grimoire_of_sacrifice,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled
    actions+=/summon_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled&buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.down
    actions+=/run_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>3
    actions+=/summon_doomguard
    actions+=/rain_of_fire,if=!ticking&!in_flight&active_enemies>1
    actions+=/havoc,target=2,if=active_enemies>1
    actions+=/shadowburn,if=ember_react
    actions+=/immolate,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=5&miss_react
    actions+=/chaos_bolt,if=ember_react&(buff.backdraft.stack<3|level<86)&(burning_ember>3.5|buff.dark_soul.remains>cast_time|buff.skull_banner.remains>cast_time)&(mana.pct<=75|(buff.havoc.stack>=3&buff.havoc.remains>cast_time))
    actions+=/conflagrate
    actions+=/rain_of_fire,if=!ticking&!in_flight&mana.pct>=50
    actions+=/incinerate
    actions+=/chaos_bolt,if=mana.pct<20
    First thing I wanted to improve here is a better use of Shadowburn. The original code only has the following line for SB:

    Code:
    actions+=/shadowburn,if=ember_react
    I changed that to:

    Code:
     actions+=/shadowburn,if=ember_react&((buff.dark_soul.up|burning_ember>3.7|target.time_to_die<10|((cooldown.dark_soul.remains*0.08+burning_ember>4|mana.pct<50)&(buff.jade_spirit.up|buff.relic_of_yulon.up|buff.synapse_springs_2.up)))|mana.pct<20)
    Not SB is only used if either Dark Soul is up, Embers are about to be capped, the enemy is about to die. The second parts calculated the average amount of embers that will be generated until the next DS is ready. This is given as a result from simcraft under resources. The normal profile gives 0.08 embers per second. That means if we are going to have an overflow of embers or under 50% mana and a proc is up (excluded essence of terror as SB does not benefit from the haste proc) then use SB.
    The last part is to use it if we are about to go oom. The 50% mana option is included because otherwise most SBs would be used because of low mana during times without procs.

    This change results in a 30 dps increase. The DPET from SB increases but most of the SBs are used due to low mana.

    Next I was trying to use the same idea for CB.
    The old CB line:

    Code:
    actions+=/chaos_bolt,if=ember_react&(buff.backdraft.stack<3|level<86)&(burning_ember>3.5|buff.dark_soul.remains>cast_time|buff.skull_banner.remains>cast_time)&(mana.pct<=75|(buff.havoc.stack>=3&buff.havoc.remains>cast_time))
    This means: Use CB only if you have less than 3 stacks of backdraft. Use CB if you are about to cap embers or Dark Soul is active or Skull Banner is active and you have less than 75% mana (to avoid mana capping). The havoc part is only for multitargets and I'm going to focus on singletarget for the moment.

    I changed this to:

    Code:
    actions+=/chaos_bolt,if=ember_react&(buff.backdraft.stack<3|level<86)&(burning_ember>3.5|buff.dark_soul.remains>cast_time|(cooldown.dark_soul.remains*0.08+burning_ember>4&(buff.skull_banner.remains>cast_time|buff.relic_of_yulon.remains>cast_time|buff.synapse_springs_2.remains>cast_time|buff.jade_spirit.remains>cast_time)))&mana.pct<=75
    This now reads as: Use CB only if you have less than 3 stacks of backdraft. Use CB if you are about to cap embers ot if Dark Soul is up. Then once again we check if we are about to cap embers until the next DS is ready and if yes use these additional CBs if either: Skull Banner or Relic of Yulon or Synapse Springs or Jade Spirit is up and we have less than 75% mana.

    So logically I would assume we get a dps increase as we should not cast our CBs now if we are about to cap but when procs are up and still go into DS with 3-4 embers. But this change gives a 330 dps loss.
    I didn’t have enough time to analyze this in depth yet. With this change we get a DPET decrease for CB (~3,5k) and RoF (~2,5k), but a DPET increase for incinerate (~700). I have no idea how this can happen yet. Looking at the APL list and the Sample Sequence we see that we use less CBs only for mana. That would be the following line:

    Code:
    chaos_bolt,if=mana.pct<20
    The amount of CBs used increases by an average of 0.7 but the number of SBs decreases by 0.6
    This is probably because we use an ember shortly before reaching 20%. (Could probably be avoided by using some clever conditional to pool embers shortly before execute range) But it is no explanation how the DPET of CB can drop as we should be using it now during proccs instead of just when we are about to cap or go oom.
    This is where I’m stuck atm. IF somebody has an idea why the DPET increases or some other kind of improvement idea please share.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Koloui View Post
    We are not the top dps specc arcane mages and windwalkers sim higher than us. So your comment is faulty. If blizzard considers affliction does too high dmg reduce the dpg output but not by nurfing GoSac a talent that the community likes and prefers. There are numerous similar talents ( in a sense of mandatory in all other classes and specs) and this was considered mandatory only for pve raiding for affliction primarily and destro secondary.

    Warlocks are not a pet class and shouldnt be considered as one as someone else stated above. There are equal arguments of playing petless as much as playing with a pet. We have a whole spec (demonology that revolves around pets). Affliction revolves around dots and destro around fast casts (not exactly nowadays situation but anyhow thats a different matter).

    5-10 reduction in PetSac is acceptable 20 % is an overkill.
    No, your comment is faulty. Sims are one thing, but fight mechanics this tier highlight Affliction's (mobility and shard replenishment through adds) and Arcane's (%dmg modifiers) strengths. In Dragon Soul warlocks simmed well, but in fights did not do great on meters due to fight mechanics.

    The pet argument is one of preference, and I do like the petless play for Affliction and especially Destro. But to say that warlocks are not a pet class is silly. We used a pet for the last two expansions, most of vanilla, and the first half of Burning Crusade.

    People don't understand the game from the developer's side. I have a friend who works for the Rift design team. The general concept of design and class balance is pretty similar between Blizzard and Trion Studios. They both use expansions as revamps for major rotational and ability playstyles, because along with the scenery and content if a new expansion, it freshens up your class. Content patches are there for balancing, yes, but remember that like expansions, content patches are a time where a lot of players come back and resub to the game and want to experience something new, but it's a lot of effort and frustrating for the players to revamp rotations/abilities every patch. So especially for pure DPS classes, developers like to buff the lesser played specs (Demo and Destro) so that players will play them more and experience something different. How boring would it be to play Grim of Sac Affliction this whole expansion?

    Try to understand the game from a developer's side, and you'll see why changes are necessary to keep the gameplay fresh without overcomplication.

  16. #116
    @realCool : i think you'd better use a build from SVN rather than a release from 17 days ago, and don't forget to add ptr=1
    Kartov, 1/13 25H, gnome warlock from Eclipse @ Eu-Dalaran (FR)

  17. #117
    So....

    I haven't had time to get on the PTR and test this cycle. For people running as Destro, given the most recent nerfs...what are people finding to be the best combo of secondary stats? And with GoSup, is observer still the best choice?

    Just from eyeballing it given the increased damage of our ember generators and the 2PC/4PC bonuses, seems like it will probably be Haste > Crit > Mastery...emphasis on getting as many haste buffed CB/SSs off as possible. Anybody seeing anything different?

  18. #118
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    I'm playing Destro with GoSup/Haste on Mageara 25H, I must admit it is pretty funny to have so much haste (gone from 12% buffed to 25% ).
    Last edited by Zumzumzum; 2013-02-28 at 10:17 PM.
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  19. #119
    So, how's destro performing for u Zumzum on the PTR? Hoping you can give me some hope of still playing destro next tier because as it stands I am assuming that I will be affi/demo along with 99% of the other locks out there.

  20. #120
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    I've only played it on AoE/SB fights for now, not really indicative (I was in the top but moonkins seem really strong compared to Live).
    Those 200k Shadowburns with ilvl 527 are kinda sad
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