1. #1

    Sub - Slice and Dice auto refresh

    Hey.

    I've been thinking a lot on this subject and I feel that if Blizzard was to make Slice and Dice refresh with every evicserate, just like assasination, I think sub could easily come on par with assas and combat.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    The 'press eviscerate/envenom to refresh x ability' is getting pretty old tbh.

  3. #3
    I think they'll just make snd combat only

  4. #4
    Yeah that system is maybe old, but Subtlety has too much buffs he needs to manage, especially in PvP. Before you can even start to do any damage you need to activate Rupture + SnD + Hemmorhage + maybe Recuperate and then you can use Eviscerate. A bit more simple rotation for Subtlety would be lovely.

    Anyway there is no reason why not to make SnD passive ability...

    EDIT: Grammar..
    Last edited by Aristo; 2013-02-24 at 08:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristo View Post
    Yeah that system is maybe old, but Subtlety has too much buffs he needs to manage, especially in PvP. Before you can even start to do any damage you need to activate Rupture + SnD + Hemmorhage + maybe Recuperate and then you can use Eviscerate. A bit more simple rotation for Subtlety would be lovely.

    Anyway there is no reason to make SnD passive ability...
    it's snd/rupture-garrote, maybe recuperate.. hemmorhage isn't needed (anyway u usually uses hemo a lot, since uc an't backstab all the time
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  6. #6
    sub rotation is already easy...

    All you have to keep up is slice and dice, rupture and hemo. They already made sub easy when they removed recupe from the rotation.


    I'd prefer rogues got more variety across their specs. Sub needs to replace slice and dice with a bleed related finisher. Assassination needs it replaced with a poison related finisher.
    "I pulled up to moonglade about 7 or 8
    and yelled to the trainer "yo resto cya."
    Looked at my talent tree, i was finally there.
    To go to Karazhan and tank in dire bear."
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -Yarma

  7. #7
    Anyone else feel like removing SnD from assassination/subtlety would make the specs really hard to balance in terms of dps? I'm a bit afraid of the idea. At some point I were thinking of making SnD just a passive for all specs but that would require some changes to make up for numbing down "rotations" even more.. No SnD might make rogues way too bursty (in PvP that is) and we might end up getting nerfed hard in the future.

    Shotly: Removing SnD might not be the answer, but we'll see what they're going to do.
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigeri View Post
    Anyone else feel like removing SnD from assassination/subtlety would make the specs really hard to balance in terms of dps? I'm a bit afraid of the idea. At some point I were thinking of making SnD just a passive for all specs but that would require some changes to make up for numbing down "rotations" even more.. No SnD might make rogues way too bursty (in PvP that is) and we might end up getting nerfed hard in the future.

    Shotly: Removing SnD might not be the answer, but we'll see what they're going to do.
    Yeah I would expect another throttle ability to replace it. I just want it to be more spec appropriate.
    "I pulled up to moonglade about 7 or 8
    and yelled to the trainer "yo resto cya."
    Looked at my talent tree, i was finally there.
    To go to Karazhan and tank in dire bear."
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -Yarma

  9. #9
    Compare Subtlety with any other melee like Warrior, Monk or Feral Druid - all of them hava practically instant burst. Rogue is only class who first needs to spend ~15 global cooldowns and then can do any burst. And that is a lot of time, because you cannot keep active 3 spells all the time, you must refresh them manually, which means after 20s in Stealth in BG/Arena you need to use them all again. With very poor mobility and survivability (yeah, even on 5.2 PTR can rogue die in 1 stun) it makes rogue useless. Why to bring any rogue to my 3v3 team when there is always better choice, like Feral Druid with huge damage and enormous self heal/defence.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraddark View Post
    Yeah I would expect another throttle ability to replace it. I just want it to be more spec appropriate.
    That was why gc suggested that he was considering removing it in the first place. Rogues are feeling way too maintenancey. Assassination doesn't even know it exists except for long transitions. There are plenty of passive and active abilities they could tune to make up for it.

  11. #11
    I think this is a bad idea.

    Pressing evis to refresh rupture worked because it meant that there were three things to maintain, one of which was maintained only by a 5 point eviscerate (I mean, you could do a 4 point, but it hurt you bad when it dropped).

    If you took slice out, all we would have is rupture. That's pretty poor. The spec really needs both slice and rupture so that they can collide occasionally and make you think to optimize- it's not much compared to cata, but it's something.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    If you took slice out, all we would have is rupture. That's pretty poor. The spec really needs both slice and rupture so that they can collide occasionally and make you think to optimize- it's not much compared to cata, but it's something.
    Slice and Dice has its own issues with existing at all, as we've discussed in a lot of threads, but as Verain points out here, we'd be oversimplifying subtlety. Managing rupture and pressing Evis would make PvE even more monotonous, not that pressing SnD is particularly "fun" in and of itself. At the moment, though, sub plays like combat with a different cooldown. Snip SnD, and it's Assassination + Hemo with a different cooldown.

  13. #13
    They would need to compensate HEAVILY on increasing our white damage or CPGs. Since they took away a lot our dmg from CPGs I doubt they would add it in there. SnD creates a lot of imbalance. I wish they would make it a passive and lower the attack speed increase.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

    http://http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Elargee/simple

  14. #14
    Staleness and homogenization of the rotations are very well known issues - never mind the fact that we've all beaten them to death on these boards. The problem can be summed up quite nicely by posing a question; Which spec am I referring to with this single-target rotation?

    - This spec uses a standard combo point builder, which usually builds a set amount of combo points, but can build more under specific circumstances
    - It's necessary to maintain Rupture on your target at all times
    - It's necessary to keep Slice n' Dice running
    - Upon reaching 5 combo points, you use your damaging finisher
    - Repeat

    Did you guess it? That's right, all 3 specs. All 3 specs essentially revolve around identical rotations with VERY slight tweaks. One spec gives you combo points as time goes on, another one requires a buff to be present, and the last one is just crit-dependent - in practice, this all just translates to "Different ways of achieving the same goal" which is 5 combo points for the next arbitrary finisher - all of which are shared by all 3 specs...
    Last edited by Incineration; 2013-02-25 at 12:59 AM.

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