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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Were warlocks broken or underperforming for Cata? I certainly don't remember that being the case.
    They were somewhat mid-of-the-pack as far as I recall, and you had to be a rather determined player to get there. The rotations were far from accessible, and you had to work very hard just to gain very little.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 02:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodejjj View Post
    Pro tip: you're wrong about warriors. They're all SMF, which means they can't just drop a weapon and go Arms.
    That's simply a matter of numbers - not a matter of design.
    I have no clue about warriors, so for arguments sake, let's say Fury is godlike for cleaving while Arms is godlike for single-target:
    - You'd obviously want to swap between the two, depending on what a fight requires
    - You can do so simply by equipping one set of weapons

    The above doesn't apply to rogues. Enter the argument of the OP.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Just like subtlety now and in cata, plus u have stupid positional requirement
    Subtlety in Cataclysm was also the highest single target DPS spec at least in Dragon Soul, and it's very simple to play right now. It wasn't hard in Cataclysm either for that matter. It's not even remotely close to a Warlock's level back then.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  3. #23
    I really don't see how requiring effort to do reasonable dps equals in need of reworking. And I don't think they were in the middle either. The really good ones were really high up there, especially on fights where they could multi dot. If anything getting dps in proportion to effort is good design and puts them at the back of the reworking pile.

    And really this 140% effort is a load of crap. This isn't some fantasy world where people randomly get power ups (talking RL not the game) nor is it some fantasy world like high school coaches live in where you can give 110%. You can't give more than 100% and including what ifs about giving 140% is about as useful as what ifs about dividing by zero.

    Really the only problem that you could argue with aff was that the penalties for mistakes and less than perfect play were larger than most specs. And again, thats a problem with the other specs. If you don't penalize mistakes, then the reward for not making any is massively diminished.

    Aside from that, you guys are forgetting they had 2 other specs and I am pretty sure at least one of them was decent for every tier (along with aff).

    @Asmodejj
    Sorry but your SMF argument is dumb. TG may be a little behind but afaik it isn't enough behind that you would want to use SMF with say non heroic weapons versus TG with heroic weapons. TG afaik is also ahead for fights with a lot of AE. For combat a blue 463 2.6 is going to beat out a 502 epic dagger purely because of the weapon type. Assassination can't be played at all with anything but 2 daggers. Non dagger sub isn't even remotely close to useful.

  4. #24
    The point wasn't effort VS reward, the point was the spec(s) being a clunky mess that was difficult to deal with. Rogues don't have this problem.

    EDIT:
    Before someone says it was just Affliction or them having other specs which were fine, no, no they didn't. Demonology worked okay but was rather clunky as well. Destruction was one absolute mess which mechanic-wise made no sense. I forgot the details but it was something about some mechanics and Soul Fire working against eachother. On top of that they were also extremely difficult to execute because of the high number of buttons and things to manage.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-02-25 at 02:14 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  5. #25
    Warlock difficulty/reward in Cata is really irrelevant here, and if you wanted to discuss it, I recommend trying the warlock forums rather than asking a bunch of rogues how hard and how rewarding warlocks were in cata O.O

    Sub in DS was not pulling 90% damage for more effort; it was more effort and more reward (for single target, when you could stay behind the target, and possibly on Ultraxion in the hemo/evis build with the legendaries only).

    There are 2 reasons I don't think we'll get a complete class overhaul like warlocks:
    1) GC said rogues don't need an overhaul like warlocks.
    2) We're really easy to balance right now, and Blizzard likes that. They like our energy model.

    GC did mention rogues might need changes, which gives me some hope for some real differences between the specs in 6.0 (crossed fingers, not holding my breath), and I think doing away with SnD - or at least restricting it to combat - is the first step in that direction, to making our finishers feel like finishers again, and making the buttons we press feel like they do something.

  6. #26
    My main problem is, that I want to go combat in 5.2 but I hate fist weapons and I hate stealing loot from our raid's enhancement shaman

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    My main problem is, that I want to go combat in 5.2 but I hate fist weapons and I hate stealing loot from our raid's enhancement shaman
    It's not like there's Axes, or maces....

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    It's not like there's Axes, or maces....
    Both also the only maces available to Enhancement shaman.

    When a Rogue is the only class able to effectively use a weapon type, we're pressured into using them.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Both also the only maces available to Enhancement shaman.

    When a Rogue is the only class able to effectively use a weapon type, we're pressured into using them.
    Not necessarily. If combat ends up being top, there really isn't any pressure. Now if a dagger spec has a slight lead, I could see there being a lot of pressure to take the daggers. But for example if combat was ahead by as much as assassination for the majority of the tier, that is probably at least as large a dps difference as a monk taking a 2her.

    For example, no one was pressuring me not to take deathwing's axe (I wasn't first in line for legendaries) and instead take his dagger and play a different spec.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Subtlety in Cataclysm was also the highest single target DPS spec at least in Dragon Soul, and it's very simple to play right now. It wasn't hard in Cataclysm either for that matter. It's not even remotely close to a Warlock's level back then.
    That statement is simply made up. If you did play Sub to max potential, yes it was as fiddly as Warlocks. Not even remotely close? Speak about hyperbole. With legendary daggers the rotation became cheesecake, but before that...nope.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    That statement is simply made up. If you did play Sub to max potential, yes it was as fiddly as Warlocks. Not even remotely close? Speak about hyperbole. With legendary daggers the rotation became cheesecake, but before that...nope.
    What was the most difficult part in your opinion? Refreshing Rupture with Eviscerate before it fell off? Keeping up Recuperate? Weaving in Hemorrhage's dot?

    Nothing was really difficult. It's was a matter of pressing the right finisher. The most difficult part in my opinion was deciding to use Shadowstep for more Ambush damage or to increase uptime if I had to move away from a boss for example. But hey this is all opinion based. I don't see this discussion ending well.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-02-26 at 04:22 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    What was the most difficult part in your opinion? Refreshing Rupture with Eviscerate before it fell off? Keeping up Recuperate? Weaving in Hemorrhage's dot?
    The hardest parts were:

    1)- Ensuring that when recuperate and slice and dice collided, that you would have the ability to minimize damage loss from such an event.
    2)- Ensuring that the HAT combo point when you were playing around 5 CPs did not get wasted.
    3)- Keeping up a good hemo dot, often by refreshing at the tail end of FW.

    In general, it was about events that happened with little room for error or you would leave dps on the floor. Many of the MoP changes have weakened the spec- for instance, rolling the last tick of rupture and the last tick of slice have made the spec a lot more forgiving, and removing the autorefresh of rupture has taken away the third time entirely. Now it's simply slice and rupture, and anticipation makes planning ahead much easier, and removes the concern about that 5th combo point. I am hoping that marked for death can be used instead of anticipation for a single target sub gain- that will add some coolness back into the spec.

    Nothing was really difficult. It's was a matter of pressing the right finisher.
    I strongly disagree here.

  13. #33
    I doubt MfD is a single target gain for sub. Dance is also a 1 min CD and you will either waste as many CP as MfD gives or end up getting in less ambushes and having to evis at less than 5cp. And thats ignoring potentially HAT procs that get wasted and the rotation flexibility when you are about to need to refresh 2 things at once.

  14. #34
    I'd appreciate if they were consistent on the whole weapon type theme, but I personally don't consider it a big QoL issue. I'd rather if they addressed:

    • 1-90 surviveability outside of cooldowns
    • Vanish resetting aggro and not being a DPS cooldown
    • Tricks applying on body pull and not after 1st hit
    • Expertise capping being a DPS gain

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I doubt MfD is a single target gain for sub. Dance is also a 1 min CD and you will either waste as many CP as MfD gives or end up getting in less ambushes and having to evis at less than 5cp. And thats ignoring potentially HAT procs that get wasted and the rotation flexibility when you are about to need to refresh 2 things at once.
    I don't know, but it would be interesting.

    When dancing without Anticipation, you'll obviously have a harder time of it. Ambush makes two CPs, and to lose no combo points might require some 4 CP eviscerates- or maybe there's a way to do it correctly.

    Wasted HAT procs shouldn't be a thing with correct play. Ideally.

    Obviously anticipation offers smoothness of play to sub- but I don't think it's an absolute gain, as it offers to mutilate and combat- or at least, it MIGHT be in the realm of MfD.

    But, I dunno. I would just like it to be.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    I'd appreciate if they were consistent on the whole weapon type theme, but I personally don't consider it a big QoL issue. I'd rather if they addressed:

    • 1-90 surviveability outside of cooldowns
    • Vanish resetting aggro and not being a DPS cooldown
    • Tricks applying on body pull and not after 1st hit
    • Expertise capping being a DPS gain
    Your first point is a big deal. I think in general rogues are pretty lame while levelling. In fact, I could make a case that a rogue without raid epics is generally undesirable all over, a problem other classes don't have.

    I very much like vanish as a dps cooldown. Especially for sub. If you consider it being a "dps cooldown" because it gives you a free yellow attack every two minutes, well, that's not really a dps cooldown. That is pretty trivial damage, and you won't feel bad holding off on that for mutilate or combat. For sub I really like it- the spec is about that sort of thing.

  16. #36
    Well I don't. It means that what should have been a flavorful - and historically important - utility spell is turned into a very marginal DPS gain that I either have to feel bad for not taking or which completely negates the point of the spell. Giving us a flat 1% DPS boost and the freedom to use Vanish as it was intended (losing aggro; getting out of a hairy situation; using stealth level strategically; getting out to ress the raid; etc.) would be a QoL improvement in my book.

  17. #37
    Just don't vanish. I doubt vanishing on cooldown as mutilate or combat is a 1% dps gain. Assume a ROUGH average of 100k dps. A 1% boost is 1k dps. Do you think that the once every two minute vanish is netting 120k damage? Even if it is, that's damned trivial- if you need to vanish, just hold on to it. Plenty of classes have to do stuff for fight mechanics that is way more costly than this. In our own class, feint is a good example.

    What you are asking is for the deletion of shadow focus. I just don't see why. This cooldown is so trivial compared to back when we had overkill.


    Whereas for sub, it's a substantial gain. One of sub's core mechanics is "you deal more damage when you come out of stealth". Sub even gets this TWICE- once with find weakness, and once with master of sub. That is not a small boost together- I think that's like close to 40% damage boost in pve for 10 seconds, right? Hardly trivial! I would be very sad if they took this away- especially because, as a night elf, I actually have a damage racial as sub.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Just don't vanish. I doubt vanishing on cooldown as mutilate or combat is a 1% dps gain. Assume a ROUGH average of 100k dps. A 1% boost is 1k dps. Do you think that the once every two minute vanish is netting 120k damage? Even if it is, that's damned trivial- if you need to vanish, just hold on to it. Plenty of classes have to do stuff for fight mechanics that is way more costly than this. In our own class, feint is a good example.

    What you are asking is for the deletion of shadow focus. I just don't see why. This cooldown is so trivial compared to back when we had overkill.


    Whereas for sub, it's a substantial gain. One of sub's core mechanics is "you deal more damage when you come out of stealth". Sub even gets this TWICE- once with find weakness, and once with master of sub. That is not a small boost together- I think that's like close to 40% damage boost in pve for 10 seconds, right? Hardly trivial! I would be very sad if they took this away- especially because, as a night elf, I actually have a damage racial as sub.
    It's been simmed as a 1% gain at T14 BiS assa. If you got other numbers I'm all ears, but if we assume it's around that figure then any raiding rogue should use it as there's no real upside to not doing so. EJ talks about Rupture in combat as a theoretical 1% DPS gain; this one comes at no cost.

    The QoL issue at hand is that Shadow Focus - designed to make for more potent PvP openers - indirectly turns a relevant (and class defining) utility spell into an almost trivial and not at all engaging DPS spell.

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