Are our Moral Standards in Society Degrading?

[RaoBurning]

I don't see the difference. "I want myself/my loved one to live and I'm willing to have the government force someone else to pay for their treatment on my behalf". Even if they were okay with government acting in this manner, if it was really about the principle they'd want that money used to feed the many hungry children a surgery's cost can feed, not to be used to save their relative. It's 100% selfish, the principle is just a smokescreen.

This line of thinking ignores the fact that in socialized healthcare systems nobody gets out of jail free, so to speak, on the healthcare bill. Everyone pays. It's not free for you, it's just reduced cost.

And, seriously, I may not know most of my neighbors but I'd gladly take a bump in taxes to make sure everybody else had healthcare.

ESPECIALLY kids. There's nothing more sad than a sick kid that can't see the doctor because mommy and daddy are poor or their insurance doesn't cover the specialist s/he needs. Compassion for my fellow humans is totally a thing.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 05:44 AM ----------

Government being expected to prevent all medically preventable deaths isn't civilized, it's stupid. You squeeze harder and harder, slowing down your economy by removing incentive in the process, and it will never be enough if this is your definition.



How arrogant are you that you think what I do with the wealth I've accumulated via voluntary agreements is in any way up for your scrutiny? I don't owe you or anyone else an explanation of how I spend my money, neither now while I"m poor nor later in life when I expect to live quite comfortably and guilt-free. The idea that your opinion about my wealth is worth more than dog shit is easily disguised as moral righteousness, but it's really nothing more than arrogance and self-centeredness, even if it isn't just an act to get in my pocket. I want to make myself happy and comfortable with my own wealth, but someone else wants to take it from me by force and make themselves happy and comfortable instead. Who exactly is the "selfish twat" in that scenario?



Blah blah blah. Great arguments against an anarchist, piss poor reason to un-privatize healthcare. If you're worried about the rich benefitting more and thus paying more, you'd want the same for people who benefit more from healthcare services.



The idea that forcibly taking wealth because you don't approve of how it's being used is pretty twisted. It's not up to you to decide if the rich are spending their wealth adequately. And the idea that this money is all going to come from savings accounts that would never be touched anyway is just delusional.

---------- Post added 2013-02-24 at 11:56 PM ----------



"Giving people power" to force money out of their money's pocket for themselves is an exercise in liberty now? Give me a break.

Let me just ask this now and save myself a lot of trouble later: Are you the kind of guy who doesn't want to pay taxes for city street lights if you never go out at night, or for public schools if you never intend to have kids, or for roads in parts of the town you never drive to/on?

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 05:53 AM ----------

This is a ridiculous idea of "social debt". I pay my debt by paying a larger amount of taxes to help support the things that make society possible - infrastructure, national defense, law enforcement. I don't pay it off by being a slave to the whims of whatever 51% of the country decides my money will be spent on.

How are you fine with this stuff but not public healthcare? Wouldn't you be better off paying people to build the roads and buildings YOU WANT, or hiring a private security company instead of even bothering with a police force other people who don't pay as much taxes as you have access to?

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 05:59 AM ----------

more and more young people growing up never NOT knowing the anonymous "say anything you want no matter how crude" environment of the internet.
i was sued last year for slapping one of my students.

thankfully once the judge had heard the full story i was acquitted. people have no respect for anything anymore.

I'm curious about this full story that makes hitting a student acceptable. I come from an educational background and I guarantee that short of having a weapon pulled on me I'd have been fired immediately. I pushed the lines pretty hard, but I never hit my students. PM me the details if they're not fit for the topic at hand, would you kindly.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 06:04 AM ----------

I blame Southpark.

If everybody keeps doing unto others as they would have them do by you, then I'm sure we'll be alright for another couple of decades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

Eh, the Golden Rule falls apart under any real depth of scrutiny. Example:

I'd really like to have sex with that girl, so I should. Just because I'd like something to happen, or done to me, doesn't mean other people would. Even going the less rapist route it's kinda silly. I, for one, enjoy my privacy. I might have a hypothetical neighbor who loves to be chatted at, and thus by the rule here constantly comes over to yack at me. I would be displeased.

I would amend the golden rule thusly: Do unto others, unless they don't want you to. Then, move alone.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 06:14 AM ----------

I sure hope you are talking about the recent past. Oh wait... even then... black people were lynched. Couldn't vote. Etc.
Ancient Rome people were crucified to set an example. People held daily orgies. The list goes on...

If you ask me, having a sexualized society or w/e isn't nearly as bad as a society that outright condones slavery and human trafficking. It's not like the girls in TV ads and porn and such are forced into it.

I'd like to start a referendum to bring this back into the daily activity list.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 06:39 AM ----------

Please do.

With vast swathes of middle-class, Western youngsters effectively self-educating themselves morally via the Internet, why is it a ludicrous statement?

As for Internet v2.0 - having to sign up with your actual details and paying for all content is happeneing now and will continue to happen at the price of freedom of speech.

Or - and I'm just spit balling here - people don't use those services that they don't like, and those services die off. Maybe?

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 06:49 AM ----------

Yes, they're getting worse. I don't think there's really any denying it. Despite what liberals and atheists say, change isn't always progress.

Despite what people who say it say, change isn't always bad and tradition isn't synonymous with good.

---------- Post added 2013-04-05 at 07:03 AM ----------

I think entitled people have moral issues and a lack of a work ethic. Are there more entitled people around than before? I'm not sure. I think the American work ethic has been one-upped by asians. Like I've said before, my eyes were first opened to it in college. White kids would select business, marketing, and art majors. Asians would fill the math and science classes.

I was in 400 level calculus classes in the middle of Ohio. I was the ONLY white kid in the room. I was surrounded by asians. The teacher was from India. This was in the 90s. And let me tell you it opened my eyes to see how HARD those asians worked. They never goofed off, they did their homework, collaborated, studied, and got impressive grades.

Later in life, I entered the workforce, and I still see it. White adults goof off at work, chat away with buddies, slack off, and their production SUCKS. A couple asians in the room are quiet, polite, drama-free, work their butts off, and are the stars of the office. Gradually, I see the owner of the company catch on to what was happening, and he began to hire more and more asians, firing the white people. Its because he knows - asians work harder.

I don't care if that is considered stereotyping or what, but I've seen it everywhere I've been.

Not shaming one's family is very, very important in at least Japanese culture, and I image it would extend to others in the region as well. They bring that attitude and consequent work ethic with them when they come over to the States; and other countries, I'm sure.

Being a good student, or worker, or what have you suddenly becomes more important when the dignity of your entire family is on the line. There are some downsides, such as kids being pushed into careers they either don't want or aren't suited to for the honor of the position, but all in all it's not a half bad mentality. It flies in the face of the Individualist mentality of the typical been-here-a-while American though.


Of course people generally want to do their parents proud and all that jazz, but it's not so extreme as the Eastern cultures.

[Wikiy]

Human nature changes? Since when? You are free of sexual desire? You don't ever demonstrate superiority and attractiveness in absolutely any way?

Human nature isn't just a collection of biological instincts.

No one fights for resources and influence any longer? No one strives for wealth and power?

I don't fight for resources or power. 99.99% of Westerners don't. I also don't strive for wealth, in general (although most Westerns do) and I certainly don't strive for power. Now, why am I talking about the Western World? Because it's an extremely good example of a societal group with completely new values that could be said represent a different human nature than the rest of the world. Now, why you like to pretend that human nature is or should be universal or why it isn't dependent on social factors is beyond me.

As for slavery, it still exists. Even though it has been abolished officially, the essence is still there. A certain percentage of husbands treat their wives like slaves in ancient Greece. As for taking away freedom of choice, loans for one provide a solid short leash that ties a person to certain patch of land and job - just like a serf, although officially he's "free".

And that certain percentage represents human nature? How about you just accept that human nature is 90% socially influenced? Actually, whatever it is that you call human nature (I don't think such a thing is even worth mentioning nor do I acknowledge its existence), it's changed.

[Deleted]

People have always been fucked up.
We are just better at reporting it now days.

[Dezerte]

[Grummgug]

Not shaming one's family is very, very important in at least Japanese culture, and I image it would extend to others in the region as well. They bring that attitude and consequent work ethic with them when they come over to the States; and other countries, I'm sure.

Being a good student, or worker, or what have you suddenly becomes more important when the dignity of your entire family is on the line. There are some downsides, such as kids being pushed into careers they either don't want or aren't suited to for the honor of the position, but all in all it's not a half bad mentality. It flies in the face of the Individualist mentality of the typical been-here-a-while American though.


Of course people generally want to do their parents proud and all that jazz, but it's not so extreme as the Eastern cultures.

I'm not so sure it has anything to do with that. I have a strong work ethic (I'm white) and I'm not doing it to impress my dad. He's 2000 miles away and I don't consider his wishes in that regard. The top worker in my part time job is this asian girl. I got to talking with her and she says her father doesn't care about her at all, and she doesn'tcare about him in return. But she still has an incredible work ethic.

[zorkuus]

Is it really a good thing to cast away traditional values?

Yes it is if they serve no purpose to us anymore.

And now I can finally understand why old people complain about the youths of today...

Old people have always complained about the youth.

[Haven]

Human nature isn't just a collection of biological instincts.

It is that precisely. We have a brain and an endoctrine system just like other mammals. We experience emotion on the same basis - slap a dog and it will be angry, slap a man, he would be angry too; we have the same basic needs and urges - hunger, shelter/territory, sexual desire.

I don't fight for resources or power. 99.99% of Westerners don't.

Breaking news: there's an actual world beyond the borders of the West. And apparently you're unfamiliar with market economy, which is based on struggle for control over market - not to mention the shit that goes on between oligarchs, one peek into it makes your hair go white. Meanwhile, most of fighting for resources happens in places like Middle East.

I also don't strive for wealth, in general (although most Westerns do) and I certainly don't strive for power. Now, why am I talking about the Western World? Because it's an extremely good example of a societal group with completely new values that could be said represent a different human nature than the rest of the world. Now, why you like to pretend that human nature is or should be universal or why it isn't dependent on social factors is beyond me.

Because a monkey in a suit is still a monkey. But there are wild monkeys and circus monkeys. Circus monkeys are trained to do fancy stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that they are monkeys, and without a trainer around they are no different from wild ones. You don't have a wish to live any better than you do? Maybe it's because you have a comfy, sheltered life and you're being provided for.

The West has a history of being a cultural nexus to themselves while showing their ugly face somewhere else - like when British gentlemen drank tea at home and poisoned China's people with opium, killing their society, or butchered African tribes for the prospect of claiming diamond deposits. Or when Allies' troops pillaged France along with "freeing" it. Or silently agreeing to use the labor of cheap Asian workers that work for 14 hours a day with no days off making your shoes/iPhones/whatever. All those manners and haughty speeches are nothing more than a facade that is instantly shattered under pressure. Serving in the army, by the way, gives you a swift clarification on where's your place and how reality looks like.