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  1. #1

    Long, Long, Long, time lurker.. Wow player since EU release

    I just wanted to say Hi!

    I read MMO-Champ daily (sometimes twice daily). Never posted on a forum, Never really wanted to. Thought I would today.

    Recently started playing again, Some things I found since levelling up after a break since Dragon Soul, Did a couple of LFR's and got to the Dragon boss on 10m.

    Since then I started fresh on a new server...

    Levelling is fantastic again, THANK YOU FOR CRZ. Levelled a PVP server and although frustrating getting ganked by 90s occasionally (I wouldn't say it was major issue /evilstare dark portal though).

    Cata world changes are awesome, I hadn't levelled since TBC and it was a far more fantastic game.

    Pandaria AMAZING! I finally dinged 85 and started my journey in the mysterious Pandaland; thinking "ohhh only 5 more to go". By level 87 I was thinking "THIS IS TOO FAST, HOW CAN I COMPLETE EVEN HALF OF THIS IN 3 MORE LEVELS".

    Reached90, boredom sets in. Tillers good fun for a fortnight... Dailies good way to distribute things to do for endgame (Don't get me wrong, Its not great -but I don't have a better option) Dominion Offensive/Klaxxi were interesting but whole 90 daily thing lacks any real UMMPH, At least the An'Quiraj was serverwide and felt like you were contributing although my pathetic level 52 handing in bandages felt utterly retarded at the time...

    Was pretty much geared for Heroics already, Seems I needn't bother the ilvl is a complete artificial cap, I could blow through most of those dungeons in cata greens, unchallenging, content thrown in our faces like it should mean something.. WHAT THE HELL WAS STORMSTOUT BREWERY ALL ABOUT!!!!1111.... (I completed the zone entirely and it still seems completely and utterly irrelevant)...

    Used my available gold I had over 20k from clever auctionhousing (Skinning mainly during levelling and a lucky drop during MOP levelling). Bought some Purples. Joined a MSV (10man normal) blew through content even though I died on almost every encounter due to not having read/researched a single boss and forgetting to install DBM. After that and a few lucky drops in LFR and a couple during my pathetic MSV run, I joined HOF LFR. Mashed buttons for 50 mins and felt like I was just watching static on my TV... Did the other one after that and completed it in backwards order (Sha-water thing-dragon-first bosses) due to stupid queue. Felt like I had little else to do, pet battles amuse me whilst I'm ticking my account down, reading MMOC for the rest.

    I know I'm a fully seasoned player, I don't want to play a new game and go through the learning curve. Its fun but new life doesn't permit. I just find WOW completely unchallenging now. At least when I played most TBC/WOTLK/early Cata I felt like some skill was involved. Now I just feel like its a single player game for a week of story with optional extra "endgame" content that feels like some kind of facebook game my wife plays.

    Anyway, I still play. I log in get a couple of dailies done, PvP a little still. Say "Hi" to whoever is online.

    Anyway.. Pointless thread over, This is my WOW story. What's yours...?

  2. #2
    People still don't understand that the so-called "challenging content" in WoW is in the raids on heroic difficulty. Try doing that first then complain when you kill Sha 25 on hc.

  3. #3
    LFR is about seeing the content and still being able to progress your character for casual players. If you want more of a challenge find a guild and do normal mode, or if you want even more of a challenge heroic modes.

  4. #4
    Hello finally and welcome to MMOChamp forums :>

  5. #5
    So you do msv 10 man (and die a bunch) and then do some LFRs and now you're complaining that WoW isn't challenging? You don't play a game on the easiest difficulty and complain because it's easy, you just turn the difficulty up until it suits you.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    So you do msv 10 man (and die a bunch) and then do some LFRs and now you're complaining that WoW isn't challenging?
    This. Also try some PvP when the next season starts.

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  7. #7
    The reason they can't make LFR challenging is because it's designed to let casuals raid, and since it's casual and it's not a solo activity that pretty much means it has to be easy. If it was just you then sure they could make LFR harder, but you're queueing with a lot of other time poor people, many of whom aren't interested in communicating and working together to beat challenging content, they just hit the button and expect to get their loot. If they wipe they just bail. It's sad but it's the way the playerbase is, nothing Blizzard can do about it. Remember Cata launch heroics? They were properly challenging, I loved them personally but a lot of people still bitch abot how hard they were.

    In MoP Blizzard has segregated the content completely - if you want to invest the time and use teamwork to beat difficult content, do Challenge Modes and Normal/Heroic mode raids. You will need to make friends/join a guild and work together to do that. If you don't have the time or don't want to deal with the hassle of the social side of WoW, you can run Heroic dungeons and LFR.

    WoW is an MMO, not a singleplayer game so if you want to do the hardest content you need to invest time and make connections with other players - there's no way to do that with a queue button. Not trying to put you down or anything, playing casual is fine (in fact I am myself at the moment). Just be aware that challenging content does exist in the game but it requires a commitment.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    So you do msv 10 man (and die a bunch) and then do some LFRs and now you're complaining that WoW isn't challenging? You don't play a game on the easiest difficulty and complain because it's easy, you just turn the difficulty up until it suits you.
    Where exactly is that tuning button in questing, exploring and group-dungeons? Because I would really like to try them in a difficult setting that prevents me from almost falling alseep most of the time.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Where exactly is that tuning button in questing, exploring and group-dungeons? Because I would really like to try them in a difficult setting that prevents me from almost falling alseep most of the time.
    Challenge modes, the others are solo stuff and not really the focus of the game hence they aren't going to get as much attention as group focused stuff.

  10. #10
    Yeah I wouldn't judge end-game content on LFR.

    Sounds like you enjoying the levelling experience, you should roll some alts and play different class/race combos. Slow down, PVP and pet battle at lower levels. Turn off experience if you need to.

    Or join a raiding guild and try your hand in normals modes. Arena and RBG's are looking great in 5.2, and there are catch-up mechanics that will help get you up to speed in season 13. Max level end-game can be painful if all you're doing is LFR and dailies.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Where exactly is that tuning button in questing, exploring and group-dungeons? Because I would really like to try them in a difficult setting that prevents me from almost falling alseep most of the time.
    questing, pull all the mobs you can find, or take some gear off, there is no other option. group dungeons...do challenge modes, raids do heroic mode.

    basically I think your issue is you want hard mode WoW to come to you, rather than you seeking a group/guild of like-minded players to go to the hard mode WoW, well if you want it you have to go get it, blizzard will never add LF heroic/hard mode options because it'd be 99% fail and disband a waste of resources.

  12. #12
    Welcome to the forums!

    As for your concerns about current game difficulty, I wouldn't worry too much-- LFR isn't meant to be challenging, and 10m MSV is about the level of, say, 10m OS all drakes down to a Naxx-geared group at this moment in the content cycle. Your pug probably carried you fairly well, considering you were dying every pull.

    LFR isn't designed to be a challenge. It's basically the 5-man normal-mode dungeon equivalent of raid difficulty, and its purpose is to assist in the gearing process and allow players who would typically be non-raiders to see the bosses, story, and content. It's been very, very easy since its inception at the end of Cataclysm. Normal mode is certainly harder than LFR, but it's not designed to completely cockblock most guilds and pugs-- especially not MSV, the easiest raid of the three. Heroic modes, though, are very nicely tuned this tier, in my opinion.

    In a few weeks, 5.2 will be out, and then you can judge WoW's difficulty based on a fresh content patch-- the best time to get a good idea of it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    Challenge modes, the others are solo stuff and not really the focus of the game hence they aren't going to get as much attention as group focused stuff.
    Questing is not the focus in a role-playing game? And exploration is not the focus of an open-world game? That goes pretty much against any sense of videogame design in existence.

    As for challenge modes, they are only there for timed-runs, not gearing up. Neither can you join one through LFD. Kind of defeats the purpose of gearing up through challenging content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    basically I think your issue is you want hard mode WoW to come to you, rather than you seeking a group/guild of like-minded players to go to the hard mode WoW, well if you want it you have to go get it, blizzard will never add LF heroic/hard mode options because it'd be 99% fail and disband a waste of resources.
    I am in a quite nice raiding guild that does heroic modes, so, no, that is not my problem. My problem is that an open-world role-playing game gets mostly attention for its instanced content, its MOBA aspects of repeating content in a map, instead of having the same care, attention and variety in its two, by definition most important aspects, questing and exploring.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-02-26 at 02:12 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Where exactly is that tuning button in questing, exploring and group-dungeons? Because I would really like to try them in a difficult setting that prevents me from almost falling alseep most of the time.
    Yeah I would love to be able to up the difficulty while leveling :P

    But at max level the way to increase difficulty is to join a guild and raid NM/HM or do CMs. I mean you could try doing that with pugs but that might be frustrating in the extreme. If you want a challenge you need to play with people looking for the same level of challenge and willing to stick it out until you succeed. And aren't a bunch of ninjas and jerks... that helps too.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 02:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Questing is not the focus in a role-playing game? And exploration is not the focus of an open-world game? That goes pretty much against any sense of videogame design in existence.
    Not in an MMO. In an MMO the major content is multiplayer. That's what the middle M is for.

    They are talking about releasing solo scenarios in the future. It's a lot of development for something that's not the focus of the game though. Speaking of which, scenarios are a lot of fun as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    As for challenge modes, they are only there for timed-runs, not gearing up. Neither can you join one through LFD. Kind of defeats the purpose of gearing up through challenging content.



    I am in a quite nice raiding guild that does heroic modes, so, no, that is not my problem. My problem is that an open-world role-playing game gets mostly attention for its instanced content, its MOBA aspects of repeating content in a map, instead of having the same care, attention and variety in its two, by definition most important aspects, questing and exploring.
    Challenge Modes give better VP than Heroics so if you have a group that can reliably clear it and don't need gear from Heroics anymore (which you won't from like a week or two after you hit 90) then they are actually a good way to cap for the week. Plus they are harder than Heroics, not just on a timer so if you want challenge in your dungeons that is exactly what they are.

    No you can't queue for them but like I keep saying, if you want easy and convenient you queue, if you want challenging you have to invest time and get to know people to play with. You can't have challenging and convenient at the same time because it's a multiplayer game, you rely on other people. You CAN make a PUG for Challenge Modes it's just... that would be a really frustrating experience.

    P.S. Open world exploring is better in MoP than ever before. There's a lot of cool stuff to do and discover in the world. And not without challenge - if you're not overgeared some rare mobs are vicious.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-02-26 at 02:19 AM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not in an MMO. In an MMO the major content is multiplayer. That's what the middle M is for.
    But it's not just an MMO. It's an MMORPG. And I think we both know what the RP stands for. One set in what was originally a vast world, with lots of things to uncover if you took the time to explore. And there were lots of quests to do. A real lot. Which is what you are supposed to be doing in games with the initials RP in their genre description. Now it's time for celebrations if they introduce a single questline in a patch. Not what I expected when I started playing what I thought would be a role-playing game online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    They are talking about releasing solo scenarios in the future. It's a lot of development for something that's not the focus of the game though. Speaking of which, scenarios are a lot of fun as well.
    Scenarios are just as challenging as questing. In that they are not. And solo scenarios is just more instanced content. For which there is no guarantee that it will be challenging. And judging by how standards have gone down, I don't have much hope they will be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Challenge Modes give better VP than Heroics so if you have a group that can reliably clear it and don't need gear from Heroics anymore (which you won't from like a week or two after you hit 90) then they are actually a good way to cap for the week. Plus they are harder than Heroics, not just on a timer so if you want challenge in your dungeons that is exactly what they are.

    No you can't queue for them but like I keep saying, if you want easy and convenient you queue, if you want challenging you have to invest time and get to know people to play with. You can't have challenging and convenient at the same time because it's a multiplayer game, you rely on other people. You CAN make a PUG for Challenge Modes it's just... that would be a really frustrating experience.
    My point was that challenge modes are irrelevant to gearing up and levelling. So they don't count as challenging content to do initially. I love challenge modes, but why do I have to only find challenge in such a setting, and not while I am gearing an alt or helping a friend? I am not even talking about Cataclysm-level challenge. Just something that will make people pay some attention, and force us to push ourselves a bit. It feels like cheating when bosses in group-dungeons just... well, keel over really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    P.S. Open world exploring is better in MoP than ever before. There's a lot of cool stuff to do and discover in the world. And not without challenge - if you're not overgeared some rare mobs are vicious.
    It is. It truely is. And I hope they continue to add more stuff. But they are not adding more zones. That was my point. I killed half the rares for the achievement at level 85 when I was strolling around Pandaria before I started questing (because I am weird like that ) , including the lobsters whose claws you combine, and it was the most enjoyable time I had since classic really. But it was just seven zones. And gear upgrades make them obsolete now, and there is nothing to replace them until the next expansion really, because they are not going to add more zones other than ones based on daily quests.

    Which is kind of my point. The game launched with tenths of zones. And in each update, despite its massive financial success, we only got maximum of seven zones plus a dailies-focused one. As the game's success got bigger the game got... smaller.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-02-26 at 02:43 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    But it's not just an MMO. It's an MMORPG. And I think we both know what the RP stands for. One set in what was originally a vast world, with lots of things to uncover if you took the time to explore. And there were lots of quests to do. A real lot. Which is what you are supposed to be doing in games with the initials RP in their genre description. Now it's time for celebrations if they introduce a single questline in a patch. Not what I expected when I started playing what I thought would be a role-playing game online.
    Okay but WoW is multiplayer first and foremost so if you're looking for an online single player game you will never be happy with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Scenarios are just as challenging as questing. In that they are not. And solo scenarios is just more instanced content. For which there is no guarantee that it will be challenging. And judging by how standards have gone down, I don't have much hope they will be.
    I said they're fun. They're not hard mode, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    My point was that challenge modes are irrelevant to gearing up and levelling. So they don't count as challenging content to do initially. I love challenge modes, but why do I have to only find challenge in such a setting, and not while I am gearing an alt or helping a friend? I am not even talking about Cataclsym-level challenge. Just something that will make people pay some attention, and force us to push ourselves a bit. It feels like cheating when bosses in group-dungeons just... well, keel over really.
    While leveling and early gearing WoW is very easy (to the point of boredom sometimes), I do agree with that. You do have to be at least Heroic Dungeon geared to start doing anything really challenging (ie, NM raids and CMs).

    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    It is. It truely is. And I hope they continue to add more stuff. But they are not adding more zones. That was my point. I killed half the rares for the achievement at level 85 when I was strolling around Pandaria before I started questing (because I am weird like that ) , including the lobsters whose claws you combine, and it was the most enjoyable time I had since classic really. But it was just seven zones. And gear upgrades make them obsolete now, and there is nothing to replace them until the next expansion really, because they are not going to add more zones other than ones based on daily quests.

    Which is kind of my point. The game launched with tenths of zones. And in each update, despite its massive financial success, we only got maximum of seven zones plus a dailies-focused one. As the game's success got bigger the game got... smaller.
    They are adding a new zone next patch. Chock full of rare bosses, mounts, etc etc. It looks awesome. I think it's one of the things they're doing way better in MoP and it will continue at least into 5.2. Hopefully even beyond.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    But it's not just an MMO. It's an MMORPG. And I think we both know what the RP stands for. One set in what was originally a vast world, with lots of things to uncover if you took the time to explore. And there were lots of quests to do. A real lot. Which is what you are supposed to be doing in games with the initials RP in their genre description. Now it's time for celebrations if they introduce a single questline in a patch. Not what I expected when I started playing what I thought would be a role-playing game online.
    Because a game is an RPG does not equate to the game's primary form of content being quests. It means that the player assumes the role of a character(s) in a fictional setting and take responsibility for acting out this role within a narrative. As it happens, while the hundreds of quests added in each expansion are vital for the progression of said narrative, dailies, dungeons, and raids also play their part. Raids also happen to be among the most popular form of content for an MMORPG, and so they are typically the focus (because it's what sells).

    If you have an issue with the amount of content/form of content being released, I'm afraid I can't help you there, but WoW still appears to be an RPG by definition.

    On topic, in terms of content difficulty, if you're not satisfied with LFR, move up to normals. If you're not satisfied with normals, improve yourself until you don't die on each boss fight. If that doesn't satisfy you, move to the next raid tier, or heroics beyond that.
    Last edited by StationaryHawk; 2013-02-26 at 02:50 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Because a game is an RPG does not equate to the game's primary form of content being quests. It means that the player assumes the role of a character(s) in a fictional setting and take responsibility for acting out this role within a narrative. As it happens, while the hundreds of quests added in each expansion are vital for the progression of said narrative, dailies, dungeons, and raids also play their part. Raids also happen to be among the most popular form of content for an MMORPG, and so they are typically the focus (because it's what sells).
    It actually does. Quests are one of the primary ways to play a role-playing game. I think that what you read, was not the correct article on Wikipedia. Try the "Role-playing video game" one. And then scroll down to the section where it says: "Exploring the world is an important aspect of all RPGs" and "Role-playing video games typically rely on a highly developed story and setting, which is divided into a number of quests."

    Only in roguelikes is repeated bashing of brains the primary way of playing.

    And raiding is not what most players do according to statistics that show how about 40% actually completed Dragon Soul, even on LFR. It's just what is most prominent in sites like this, were certain kinds of people get involved. It's also about the only thing to do in endgame PVE-wise, so people do that. There has never been a case where the game had an equal amount of questing and exploring content to see where people veered in their preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    They are adding a new zone next patch. Chock full of rare bosses, mounts, etc etc. It looks awesome. I think it's one of the things they're doing way better in MoP and it will continue at least into 5.2. Hopefully even beyond.
    I am looking forward to those as well. I just wish they added more variety in the challenge questing and exploring presents. Just like there is LFR, normal and heroic for raid dungeons, there can be easy, medium, and highly difficult quests.

    And just as there are raid dungeons with various difficulty settings and size, there can be group-dungeons. Some easy and short, for valour point runs. Some hard and short for higher valour point gains, and some with a fluctuating challenge from piece to piece, of great size and complexity, like Blackrock Depths of old was, that offer the chance at some powerful rewards, as long as the group is good enough to overcome the challenges. Most of the instanced content nowadays has become about collecting points, not having fun, thus why things are so easy. Upping the stakes, and the rewards could help so that more variety would exist, and it could even help some players play better. Up to now challenge has been handled badly. Either it was mandatory for all to do challening group-dungeons or there were no such dungeon at all. It's as if the middle doesn't exist.

    And as for the amount of questing and exploring, I wish they paid as much attention, and added as much content, as they do for raiding. It would be only natural to expect something like that from an open-world role-playing game, except for the most financially succesful of them all it seems. Which is odd.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-02-26 at 03:13 AM.

  19. #19
    So from what I understand you have come into Pandaria late, got to 90 been carried through dungeons, got some gear from LFR did a 10 man raid and got carried again, on top of that you want a to be given a challenge but you aren't trying any content that is supposed to be difficult.

    currently sure there is a lot of easy content at max level at the moment but its not the only content.

    If you dont understand what the dungeons are about then you haven't been paying attentions while questing, Stormstout brewery for one has a quest line attached where you actually go through it as Chen and see whats happening too it.

  20. #20
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    Hi there and welcome!!

    Regarding difficulty the only thing I'll say is that lacking a non-existent system in which a user can ramp the questing difficulty up or down (sort of like the MP system in Diablo 3) is that the entire game doesn't need to be hard. There's harder stuff for those that want it and easier stuff for people who only log in to relax. That's a good thing.

    But something like the MP system would be nice to have for those nights when you want to test your own patience and skill.
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