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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Unfortunately with the plot armour and bias the Orcs get, they will never be written as defeated, at the mercy of the people they tried to destroy. Never be written as suffering worse for their shit choices. They will not even have a dent because the mercy of the writers is upon them. The Alliance will suffer, the rest of the Horde will suffer, the Orcs will never suffer.
    Well the Orcs are the main protagonists of the Warcraft universe. They won in Orcs & Humans. All the times they "lost" are merely setbacks on the path to their ultimate victory.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The only time starvation gets mentioned is apparently by Thrall via the 5.1 questline. OF ALL TIMES TO MENTION IT.
    Not to mention that the new Orgimmar design seems to have rather plentiful inns and food/meat vendors with no stock issues. Given that this was as of Cataclysm, it seems a bit iffy to suggest that they're starving.

    Durotar and the Barrens are deserts, but they've never been short on animals. The only thing that's actually missing from the area is crops, and I highly doubt that agriculture is what the Horde has planned for the areas that they want to take.

  3. #183
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Not to mention that the new Orgimmar design seems to have rather plentiful inns and food/meat vendors with no stock issues. Given that this was as of Cataclysm, it seems a bit iffy to suggest that they're starving.

    Durotar and the Barrens are deserts, but they've never been short on animals. The only thing that's actually missing from the area is crops, and I highly doubt that agriculture is what the Horde has planned for the areas that they want to take.
    I'm ok if they're truly lacking resources. If they are FINE then say it at least and be straight with it. Don't beat around the bush with it.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Well the Orcs are the main protagonists of the Warcraft universe. They won in Orcs & Humans. All the times they "lost" are merely setbacks on the path to their ultimate victory.
    And when I think about this as the big picture, I ultimately question why I ever got into the story at all when this will never be winnowed from the rest, and the detriment of what could be a great tapestry of stories. At least I've got raiding to fall back to...

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    This is only a valid argument if you completely ignore the fact that the orcs have been continuously encroaching on Night Elven lands the entire length of WoW, and that the Forsaken have made attacks on the remnants of Lordaeron in Hillsbrad, as well as Dalaran.

    If you really think that the reason Garrosh is pushing against the Alliance is because of anything Varian has personally said or done, you're silly.
    Varian also directly attacked the Undercity, a capital of the Horde. Also the citizens left over openly attacked the forsaken and wished to kill them, which is why the forsaken responded in kind and in the terms of enroachment, it was for survival and had the Night elves allowed the Orcs to cut down trees as they needed, that would have been a conflict that was avoided.
    The attacks on Dalaran, however, was either just trigger happy forsaken or dick forsaken.

  6. #186
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    Varian also directly attacked the Undercity, a capital of the Horde. Also the citizens left over openly attacked the forsaken and wished to kill them, which is why the forsaken responded in kind and in the terms of enroachment, it was for survival and had the Night elves allowed the Orcs to cut down trees as they needed, that would have been a conflict that was avoided.
    The attacks on Dalaran, however, was either just trigger happy forsaken or dick forsaken.
    The attack on the Undercity was when it was out of control of the Horde so don't start Thrive.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  7. #187
    The issue with WoW's story is that it tries to have two protagonists (the Horde and Alliance) in direct conflict with one another, and it has to cater to people identifying with both sides. Given meta-knowledge, that's incredibly difficult, so all we end up getting is a series of asspull reasons for the war to continue. Ultimately, it's an outright idiotic war that's been painstakingly preserved by the writers for gameplay reasons. It should have ended with Warcraft 3.

    In the pursuit of preserving the war, one or both of the faction leaders are always going to have to do stupidly overaggressive things. You can't have two level-headed leaders fighting a pointless war against one another, because level-headed leaders wouldn't do that. Because stupid leader(s) doing stupid things is a given, I'm not sure what can be gained from discussing them. We're far beyond the point of thoughtful character progression, after all.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2013-02-25 at 06:44 AM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The attack on the Undercity was when it was out of control of the Horde so don't start Thrive.
    He went there to take control of the Undercity from the Horde. And even if not, the attack on Thrall and Saurfang was completely unwarranted, and it took Jaina literally freezing him to get him out. For as far as I'm concerned that's more than enough to put the factions to war, or at least damn near it, near enough to warrant any attacks.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    had the Night elves allowed the Orcs to cut down trees as they needed, that would have been a conflict that was avoided.
    First off, the Orcs were logging so fast the stuff they cut was rotting in their lumberyard, unused. Orcs never take what they need. They take everything they want. Second that's like a mix of saying "if the world let Iraq take the oil they needed from Kuwait, the Gulf War never had to happen" and "We need building materials for our growing city so we'll just pillage this ancient heritage site in our neighbours country for bricks". No, unacceptable.

  10. #190
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    He went there to take control of the Undercity from the Horde. And even if not, the attack on Thrall and Saurfang was completely unwarranted, and it took Jaina literally freezing him to get him out. For as far as I'm concerned that's more than enough to put the factions to war, or at least damn near it.
    Saurfang wasn't even there. Varian was merciful to Varok Saurfang in ICC. Varian may have said something at Undercity but it's not like it wasn't warrented.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    He went there to take control of the Undercity from the Horde. And even if not, the attack on Thrall and Saurfang was completely unwarranted, and it took Jaina literally freezing him to get him out. For as far as I'm concerned that's more than enough to put the factions to war, or at least damn near it.
    Is that why he went with a small group of friends and the player, and not an army? Get real...

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Is that why he went with a small group of friends and the player, and not an army? Get real...
    At the end Varian flat out attacked Thrall and Saurfang, who were both there. The Horde and the Alliance had an invasion force outside the gates. The alliance one was placed by the sewers and the Horde by the front gate.
    And to your previous statement regarding Ashenvale, the orcs only started to do so after the situation when Nelfs attacked orcs (And its also worth noting that for most the time it was purely the Warsong Clan who lost their shit after Grom's death). Before they were hauling it off to Orgrimmar for construction of the city. And the second part of your point is just plain stupid, as is that metaphor. The orcs had no Idea the Night elves were there to begin with, and had the Nelfs came up in any attempt of diplomacy the orcs would've listened. (Though Grom's ability to negotiate is debatable).

  13. #193
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    At the end Varian flat out attacked Thrall and Saurfang, who were both there. The Horde and the Alliance had an invasion force outside the gates. The alliance one was placed by the sewers and the Horde by the front gate.
    And to your previous statement regarding Ashenvale, the orcs only started to do so after the situation when Nelfs attacked orcs (And its also worth noting that for most the time it was purely the Warsong Clan who lost their shit after Grom's death). Before they were hauling it off to Orgrimmar for construction of the city. And the second part of your point is just plain stupid, as is that metaphor. The orcs had no Idea the Night elves were there to begin with, and had the Nelfs came up in any attempt of diplomacy the orcs would've listened. (Though Grom's ability to negotiate is debatable).


    Again under the circumstances it isn't like it wasn't warrented.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  14. #194
    Annihilate all the alliance I say.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Saurfang was not there.
    Yes he was. Saurfang the younger was not, but Saurfang was.

  16. #196
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    Yes he was. Saurfang the younger was not, but Saurfang was.

    Read my edited post. The proclamation was not unwarrented.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Again under the circumstances it isn't like it wasn't warrented.
    I understand that completely. It was a risky and possibly stupid choice, but it had some warrant. My argument is that he effectively started the war by doing what he did, or at the VERY least gave enough reason for the Horde to fight start it.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    The orcs had no Idea the Night elves were there to begin with, and had the Nelfs came up in any attempt of diplomacy the orcs would've listened. (Though Grom's ability to negotiate is debatable).
    The Night Elves attacked because they picked up on the Orcs' demonic taint. You can't really blame them for assuming that they were Legion-affiliated. Their past experience would have told them that demons were non-negotiable.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Saurfang was not there.
    yes he was.
    Thrall yells: WE ARE VICTORIOUS!
    Thrall yells: The Undercity belongs to the Horde once more! LOK'TAR!
    Thrall says: Dark Lady, join me! You have fought hard and spilled much blood for this right. The Royal Quarter belongs to you!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Such will be the fate of all enemies of the Horde, Warchief. Now we must deal with the wretch, Putress.
    Thrall says: We shall, Sylvanas...
    Thrall says: Alliance horns? Stay on guard!
    The king and his group walks in.
    King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
    King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
    King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
    King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
    King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!
    The fight is joined.
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: VARIAN, NO! STOP!
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore incapacitates all units with a freeze spell.
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: It did not have to be like this...
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore teleports all Alliance forces back to Stormwind.
    Thrall says: It ends like it began...
    Thrall says: All that we have fought for in this world is lost. The hopes and dreams carried by my father and mother... by Doomhammer... Gone...
    Thrall says: If only you were here right now, old friend. You would know what to do.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: I know what he would do.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: He would say to you what I am about to say to you: Thrall. Lead your people.
    High Overlord Saurfang says: Let's go home, old friend.
    <Thrall nods>
    Thrall says: It's good to have you back, Varok, old friend. I'm sorry about your boy.

  20. #200
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrive View Post
    I understand that completely. It was a risky and possibly stupid choice, but it had some warrant. My argument is that he effectively started the war by doing what he did.
    He didn't really start the war. Garrosh actually didn't do anything about that response.


    yes he was.
    ....Read my edited Post.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

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