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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalinea View Post
    And why was Arthas in northrend? He had the chance to do what was right and did not so wall of text negated by a choice freely made before it. Also Azshara still = Night Elves since this whole post is is blaming whole races because of what their "Leader" did

    Point, set match. Judgement in favor of the defendant.
    Incorrect again chuckles. Arthas was "LED" to Northrend by Malganis so that he could become one of the Lich Kings servants.

    I'm not sure if you are Ironically quoting the Azshara part since I didn't leave it out, but again, no incentive without Sargeras being the one who pulled the puppet strings.

    Sorry, but "Judgment" (Learn to spell please) has yet to be passed. I have invalidated you once again though, I think the Jury will side with me.

  2. #382
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Maybe. Maybe not. Currently, I can't think of any Alliance WMDs.
    The only one I can think of is the rather large nuke in the Skybreaker's hold in Icecrown. It was never used (That we see) and even for Gnomes and Goblins standards, it's a bloody big bomb.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Seebach View Post
    Sorry, but "Judgment" (Learn to spell please) has yet to be passed.
    Judgement is proper in the UK in this context. Don't be snide without reason.

  4. #384
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Varian shouldnt be exiled

    Varian should be torn to pieces by my pet!

    In all seriouness i gotta admit i really do miss old varian this new boyscout varian is insufferable

    Give me brash arrogant varian who wants war just like garrosh

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Seebach View Post
    You are thinking of the second time the Horde invaded Azeroth, which was to collect powerful artifacts to escape Draenor.

    The first time that they invaded was so that they could be the Legions first assault on the legions second attempt to destroy Azeroth.
    Nope. This was the first opening of the Portal.

    1. Kil'jaeden pretends to be the spirit of Ner'zhul's wife and warns that the Draenei will attack and destroy the Orcs.
    2. The Orcs start a war with the Draenei. Even with their shaman powers, the Draenei have more powerful magic and are able to make up for their smaller numbers. They put up a strong fight.
    3. The elements abandon the Orcs because they disagree with the war.
    4. The Orcs begin to question the legitimacy of the war, but Gul'dan spins it that the elements have never been reliable. That they shouldn't have to beg and plead for the elements to lend them power. That they should wield and command power themselves. He introduces warlocks and the Blood Curse.
    5. Kil'jaeden breeds orcs and accelerates the new generation into adulthood for the final extermination of the Draenei. Once Shattrath falls, Kil'jaeden abandons the orcs.
    6. Overpopulation and infighting between the clans over dwindling resources destroy Draenor's ecosystem.
    7. Medivh contacts Gul'dan about the Tomb of Sargeras and the great power inside. Medivh also tells Gul'dan about the abundance of life, land and water that awaits them on Azeroth.
    8. Gul'dan opens the portal. They see that it goes to a desolate swamp that was nothing like the "beautiful land, rich with fat preybeasts, fertile fields, blue skies" that Gul'dan described. Gul'dan tries to cover his shock and reasons that the whole planet can't be like the Black Morrass. He sends some scouts and they come back with fresh meat. They report that the land may look like shit, but the meat is good and the water is pure. "We do not need a beautiful land. We need one that will feed and sustain us."
    9. Gul'dan sends the starving Horde through the Portal to claim this new land for themselves.

    (Rise of the Horde)

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 04:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seebach View Post
    Incorrect again chuckles. Arthas was "LED" to Northrend by Malganis so that he could become one of the Lich Kings servants.

    I'm not sure if you are Ironically quoting the Azshara part since I didn't leave it out, but again, no incentive without Sargeras being the one who pulled the puppet strings.

    Sorry, but "Judgment" (Learn to spell please) has yet to be passed. I have invalidated you once again though, I think the Jury will side with me.
    Arthas was overcome by hatred and vengeance against Malganis. This led him to slaughter the people of Stratholme, disobey his direct orders in Northrend, hire mercenaries to burn his ships to force his troops to follow his crusade, then order his toops to murder the mercenaries he hired.

    He did these things on his own, no corruption from the LK.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-26 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Grammar.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    The only one I can think of is the rather large nuke in the Skybreaker's hold in Icecrown. It was never used (That we see) and even for Gnomes and Goblins standards, it's a bloody big bomb.
    Indeed, but knowing Gnomes and their wacky ideas, it could just as well be filled with confetti for the victory parade in Stormwind. Or it is a Nude Bomb like in Get Smart...
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Murder. Torture. Kidnap. Medical experimentation. Weapon testing. All went on to help the Forsaken develop these weapons. Would you expect the leader of our nation to turn a blind eye if another country did this to your citizens?
    Again, I'm not justifying it. Some of the Forsaken are clearly off their rocker.

    I don't put what turned out to be petty larceny and looting on the same scale as genocide and use of a weapon of mass destruction.
    What?! YOU KILLED THE SKINNING TRAINER!! He fought for his life with a skinning knife! Almost everyone is dead. The flight master. The innkeeper.

    You get training by being sent on quests. You got rewarded via gear and gold.
    Let's be clear about the "game" and the "lore". In-game it's a levelling zone. In-lore it's just a hunting outpost you got send to to help out. It's not a military training camp.

    No. But you miss the point. He got a lot of his troops slaughtered for nothing. Had he not tried to be "smart", he very likely would have taken Theramore, and possibly done so with fewer losses. As a result, he almost immediately lost control of Theramore, had to suffer the loss of every single gain his forces made and almost lost Orgimmar. His campaign against Theramore ultimately cost him and the Horde a lot while gaining him little a direct attack against Theramore woudl ahve achieved except a few more dead Alliance soldiers.

    He could have taken Theramore with either the bomb...or with his troops. He used both.

    EJL
    Firstly, you are assuming he could take Theramore without massive causalities. Theramore, I repeat, is well defended. It is a staging point for the Southern Barren invasion for heaven sakes.

    The plan that got played out was an "ambush", his troops are there as bait. The bomb finished the job, destroying everything there and effectively crippled Alliance presence.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Seebach View Post
    Incorrect again chuckles. Arthas was "LED" to Northrend by Malganis so that he could become one of the Lich Kings servants.

    I'm not sure if you are Ironically quoting the Azshara part since I didn't leave it out, but again, no incentive without Sargeras being the one who pulled the puppet strings.

    Sorry, but "Judgment" (Learn to spell please) has yet to be passed. I have invalidated you once again though, I think the Jury will side with me.
    Some people's, not saying who, stupidity is only dwarfed by their arrogance. Malganis may have told Arthas where he was going but Arthas CHOOSE to follow him and he CHOOSE to hire mercs to destroy the ships after his father ordered their return only to betray them to his men. All this happening before he ever saw Frostmourne.

    Also side note, when you start attacking minor spelling mistakes it shows the lack of confidence in your own argument...

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Again, I'm not justifying it. Some of the Forsaken are clearly off their rocker.



    What?! YOU KILLED THE SKINNING TRAINER!! He fought for his life with a skinning knife! Almost everyone is dead. The flight master. The innkeeper.



    Let's be clear about the "game" and the "lore". In-game it's a levelling zone. In-lore it's just a hunting outpost you got send to to help out. It's not a military training camp.



    Firstly, you are assuming he could take Theramore without massive causalities. Theramore, I repeat, is well defended. It is a staging point for the Southern Barren invasion for heaven sakes.

    The plan that got played out was an "ambush", his troops are there as bait. The bomb finished the job, destroying everything there and effectively crippled Alliance presence.

    No, if Garrosh wanted to just take Theramore he could have, easily. But he waited, on purpose, for the Alliance to get reinforcements. It's made clear in TIdes of War that if he'd just marched on Theramore right away instead of delaying several days, Theramore would have been stomped. The city held its own ONLY because of reinforcements from all across the Alliance.

    Baine also felt disgusted over two things. That such a cowardly weapon was used to destroy the city, and that Garrosh wasted lives by sieging it. He could have used the mana bomb right off the start, but he WANTED a battle and so he attacked the city even knowing he could destroy it, and wasting horde lives that could have been saved if he'd just used the bomb right away. He threw horde lives away for no other reason than to have a glorious battle.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    No, if Garrosh wanted to just take Theramore he could have, easily. But he waited, on purpose, for the Alliance to get reinforcements. It's made clear in TIdes of War that if he'd just marched on Theramore right away instead of delaying several days, Theramore would have been stomped. The city held its own ONLY because of reinforcements from all across the Alliance.

    Baine also felt disgusted over two things. That such a cowardly weapon was used to destroy the city, and that Garrosh wasted lives by sieging it. He could have used the mana bomb right off the start, but he WANTED a battle and so he attacked the city even knowing he could destroy it, and wasting horde lives that could have been saved if he'd just used the bomb right away. He threw horde lives away for no other reason than to have a glorious battle.
    *"An orc - a true orc warrior - wishes for one thing: To die in the glory of battle against a hated enemy."- Varok Saurfang
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  11. #391
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Thalen Songweaver says: The "failed" siege was merely a feint, of course. You didn't realize?
    Thalen Songweaver says: Even now an airship draws near; its arcane payload will flatten Theramore Isle and everyone still standing upon it.


    Plan was always to drop the bomb.

    EDIT: If the plan was to capture Theramore, he would have just done it. He wouldn't have postured his army outside the gates waiting for them to pile more reinforcements into the city before attacking.
    You're missing the point.

    The goal here was to take theramoore out of the equation, whether it was by capture, annihilating it, or whatever.

    The gate thing is sort of like having the backup plan first, if it works then woohoo, you captured the city, if it doesn't you proceed as planned, I fail to understand how having a plan where both possible scenarios have you win is 'stupid'.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    You're missing the point.

    The goal here was to take theramoore out of the equation, whether it was by capture, annihilating it, or whatever.

    The gate thing is sort of like having the backup plan first, if it works then woohoo, you captured the city, if it doesn't you proceed as planned, I fail to understand how having a plan where both possible scenarios have you win is 'stupid'.
    If the goal was to merely wipe out Theramore, he would have just attacked them. Instead, he stationed his army in clear view outside Theramore for several days to bait more Alliance forces into the city. He never intended to capture Theramore. Taking it out was secondary to inflicting maximum casualties on the Alliance military. It was always a trap.

    It is stated multiple times in the novel that Theramore alone would not be able to stand against the army Garrosh used to destroy Northwatch.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-26 at 01:45 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #393
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If the goal was to merely wipe out Theramore, he would have just attacked them. Instead, he stationed his army in clear view outside Theramore for several days to bait more Alliance forces into the city. He never intended to capture Theramore. Taking it out was secondary to inflicting maximum casualties on the Alliance military. It was always a trap.

    It is stated multiple times in the novel that Theramore alone would not be able to stand against the army Garrosh used to destroy Northwatch.
    Why is killing as many alliance forces as possible in a trap mutually exclusive with dropping the bomb?
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  14. #394
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Well, this is a silly thread made in retaliation to another silly thread, but I just want to point out that Varian's march out of Theramore to the gates of Mulgore (and the razing of Camp Taurajo) was the first major act of war. So it's not entirely stupid to place some of the blame for the conflict at his feet.
    Wrathgate and all the other things the Horde did, like charging into the back of an Alliance army fighting the Scourge, killing them all and making the Scourge win the battle, all those things are suddenly forgotten?

    It's always the Horde, and it was always the Horde.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Why is killing as many alliance forces as possible in a trap mutually exclusive with dropping the bomb?
    I'm just saying that Garrosh's plan was to drop the bomb, it was never to capture Theramore. Songweaver's sabotage did nothing to help the plan.

    Everyone and their grandmother (in the Horde and in Theramore) knew the Horde forces would have easily overrun Theramore. Nobody knew why Garrosh waited. They knew his plan was to take out Theramore then move on to every other Alliance base. They kept questioning why he refused to give the order to attack: "We come, openly, imploringly, to tell you that you must strike soon, or the Alliance will have time to prepare a defense!" Garrosh's response is, "I know things that you do not, and I tell you, you will wait. And you will continue to wait until I deem the time is right." He has the whole thing planned out from the beginning.

    Garrosh was happy for any Alliance spies to see how many of the Horde they would be facing, and put no limits on how large the fires blazed or how numerous they were.

    Once the Alliance fleet arrives at Theramore he orders his warships away: “Tell the fleet to pull back even farther from Theramore. Far enough away that the most sophisticated Alliance contraption can no longer see them. Their presence isn’t needed anymore.” Then orders his ground forces to attack. WTF!?

    I can understand the idea that maybe Garrosh just wanted more people there to crush by conventional means, but then to order his entire naval force away from the battle? NO. He would have ordered his ships to siege Theramore from the sea to kill more Alliance forces. If Garrosh ever had a slight inclination for wanting to capture Theramore, he wouldn't have ordered his fleet to withdraw. There was no backup plan of capturing Theramore with his army. It was ONLY and ALWAYS to drop the bomb.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #396
    Varian has his reason for hating the horde, for one they kept him captured like a mutt, when he was royalty and forced him into gladiatorial battle and kept him locked in chains... kept him away from his son, if you were made to fight in gladiator fights while your son grew up without you... wouldnt you be pissed and hold a grudge too? I would, to not see my child grow up and forced to fight for my life every waking moment and to be royalty is just a slap in the face

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, they don't have a common ancestor. As written in that magazine, Night Elves come from Dark Trolls, supposedly confirmed by Freya and Cenarius. While this could and should be thrown out in lieu of some lore that isn't one liner crap, for now thats the story. What doesn't have much explanation are Dark Trolls. Nordrassil was planted after the War of the Ancients, the Well has not been confirmed as a source for the change.
    Hmm okay fair enough I hadn't read that article. Although all trolls and elves obviously do still have a common ancestor since Dark Trolls are just one tribe of trolls.

    It's pretty obvious isn't it? A feral nocturnal forest tribe evolved into the Kaldorei due to exposure to the Well so this just means that that tribe were Dark Trolls. I don't know why this is controversial, I mean if the primitive aboriginal race that evolved into the Kaldorei wasn't a troll race then what was it? We know there were troll tribes there around that time. It's a neat solution and makes sense.

    The most surprising thing I found about that magazine was that Magnataur are somehow related to Cenarius.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 05:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    Wrathgate and all the other things the Horde did, like charging into the back of an Alliance army fighting the Scourge, killing them all and making the Scourge win the battle, all those things are suddenly forgotten?

    It's always the Horde, and it was always the Horde.
    Again, Varimathras did that on behalf of the Legion. Sylvanas was betrayed and had to get Thrall to help her retake her own city.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #398
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    @op, you do realize it is a game world right? Its not real!!!!!

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Hmm okay fair enough I hadn't read that article. Although all trolls and elves obviously do still have a common ancestor since Dark Trolls are just one tribe of trolls.
    It's pretty obvious isn't it? A feral nocturnal forest tribe evolved into the Kaldorei due to exposure to the Well so this just means that that tribe were Dark Trolls. I don't know why this is controversial, I mean if the primitive aboriginal race that evolved into the Kaldorei wasn't a troll race then what was it? We know there were troll tribes there around that time. It's a neat solution and makes sense.
    The Well has nothing to do with the change as far as canon goes. Given that the Kal'dorei initially were supposed to be Elune's creations (one of many and not exactly difficult to fathom in a universe where numerous races are created by divine beings) and not mutated trolls such mundane origins is quite controversial. From a lore stance, a controversy not expanded upon in game, even when a bucket of Troll lore has come out in 5.2.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    The Well has nothing to do with the change as far as canon goes. Given that the Kal'dorei initially were supposed to be Elune's creations (one of many and not exactly difficult to fathom in a universe where numerous races are created by divine beings) and not mutated trolls such mundane origins is quite controversial. From a lore stance, a controversy not expanded upon in game, even when a bucket of Troll lore has come out in 5.2.
    It has been established since WC3 that the Well of Eternity is directly responsible for the mutation of "feral, nocturnal humanoids" into Night Elves. That does not mean that Elune had nothing to do with the way that mutation would happen.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

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