Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Nindoriel]

Some people's, not saying who, stupidity is only dwarfed by their arrogance. Malganis may have told Arthas where he was going but Arthas CHOOSE to follow him and he CHOOSE to hire mercs to destroy the ships after his father ordered their return only to betray them to his men. All this happening before he ever saw Frostmourne.

Also side note, when you start attacking minor spelling mistakes it shows the lack of confidence in your own argument...

He went there to kill Mal'Ganis. He was obsessed with saving his own people. To achieve that he did some questionable things, but he was not evil. He lost his soul to Frostmourne when he picked it up. It was a cursed blade. And even that he only did because he wanted to save his own people. That's why his story is so tragical.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:02 PM ----------

*"An orc - a true orc warrior - wishes for one thing: To die in the glory of battle against a hated enemy."- Varok Saurfang

Which is really not a point in the orcs' favor.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:07 PM ----------

You're missing the point.

The goal here was to take theramoore out of the equation, whether it was by capture, annihilating it, or whatever.

The gate thing is sort of like having the backup plan first, if it works then woohoo, you captured the city, if it doesn't you proceed as planned, I fail to understand how having a plan where both possible scenarios have you win is 'stupid'.

No, you still don't understand Garrosh's plan. He intended to drop the bomb on the city from the beginning. If it was all about just taking the city, he would not have waited so long. That was the plan. To wait and let the Alliance gather their forces. Because he knew he was just gonna drop the bomb anyway. It didn't matter if they faced 100 or 1000 soldiers. He wanted to get rid of a larger number of people and of a lot of high-ranking Alliance personalities.

People have pointed to several pieces of evidence that clearly show that's the case.

[Aquamonkey]

He went there to kill Mal'Ganis. He was obsessed with saving his own people. To achieve that he did some questionable things, but he was not evil. He lost his soul to Frostmourne when he picked it up. It was a cursed blade. And even that he only did because he wanted to save his own people. That's why his story is so tragical.

It stopped being about saving his people long before that. It was about getting vengeance against Mal'Ganis even back in Stratholme. When Kalec talked Jaina down, he didn't recount all the bad things Arthas committed when he was the Lich King. They specifically talked about his slaughter of the innocent people in Stratholme and her weeping at what Arthas had become.

[leaks]

Which is really not a point in the orcs' favor.

Yeah what good is a warrior society in a peaceful land like Azeroth? Not like there's a legion of demons and ancient tentacle gods trying to wipe out all life or anything.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 04:13 PM ----------

It stopped being about saving his people long before that. It was about getting vengeance against Mal'Ganis even back in Stratholme. When Kalec talked Jaina down, he didn't recount all the bad things Arthas committed when he was the Lich King. They specifically talked about his slaughter of the innocent people in Stratholme and her weeping at what Arthas had become.

Some Arthas fans still try to pull the whole "he was just doing what was needed" crap. Even though WC3 spelled it out bluntly he was doing it for revenge and pride.

[Nindoriel]

It stopped being about saving his people long before that. It was about getting vengeance against Mal'Ganis even back in Stratholme. When Kalec talked Jaina down, he didn't recount all the bad things Arthas committed when he was the Lich King. They specifically talked about his slaughter of the innocent people in Stratholme and her weeping at what Arthas had become.

Vengeance played a role, it's only natural. But still, Mal'Ganis was still around and had to be dealt with. The Scourge had to be fought to protect his people.

Yeah what good is a warrior society in a peaceful land like Azeroth? Not like there's a legion of demons and ancient tentacle gods trying to wipe out all life or anything.

Well, you might have noticed, the orcs aren't the only ones fighting those people. You don't need to wish to "die in the glory of battle against a hated enemy". All that really suggests is that this race loves to fight and kill and puts that above everything else. What would they do if there were no evil people to fight? What if there is no hated enemy?

[leaks]

Well, you might have noticed, the orcs aren't the only ones fighting those people. You don't need to wish to "die in the glory of battle against a hated enemy". All that really suggests is that this race loves to fight and kill and puts that above everything else. What would they do if there were no evil people to fight? What if there is no hated enemy?

Don't know cause there has always been an enemy that needed fighting and since this is a fantasy game based on killing demons and monsters there always will be.

[Nindoriel]

Don't know cause there has always been an enemy that needed fighting and since this is a fantasy game based on killing demons and monsters there always will be.

It all depends on who you make your enemy. Before the Burning Legion offered the orcs the Blood Curse, before they united into one single Horde, the clans were fighting each other.

[Skytotem]

No, you still don't understand Garrosh's plan. He intended to drop the bomb on the city from the beginning. If it was all about just taking the city, he would not have waited so long. That was the plan. To wait and let the Alliance gather their forces. Because he knew he was just gonna drop the bomb anyway. It didn't matter if they faced 100 or 1000 soldiers. He wanted to get rid of a larger number of people and of a lot of high-ranking Alliance personalities.

People have pointed to several pieces of evidence that clearly show that's the case.

Yes he intended to drop the bomb but if Songweaver had weakened the gate and they'd taken the city without it I fail to see how that's 'a bad plan'. It's literally a win-win scenario, I don't get why anyone's criticizing it.

[leaks]

It all depends on who you make your enemy. Before the Burning Legion offered the orcs the Blood Curse, before they united into one single Horde, the clans were fighting each other.

They were at war with the Gronn and the ogres. That's the whole reason they were a warrior society, they lived on a planet with giant murderous cyclops and big dumb ogres that like to smash anything that is smaller than them.

They also didn't start fighting each other until after they were corrupted because they wiped out the Draenei and had nothing left to feed their bloodlust. And you would have to ignore that every other race has had civil wars even though they weren't warrior societies.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes he intended to drop the bomb but if Songweaver had weakened the gate and they'd taken the city without it I fail to see how that's 'a bad plan'. It's literally a win-win scenario, I don't get why anyone's criticizing it.

Because Songweaver tearing down the gate completely contradicts Garrosh's sending the fleet away from Theramore.

[Skytotem]

Because Songweaver tearing down the gate completely contradicts Garrosh's sending the fleet away from Theramore.

I don't really follow, at this point wouldn't it not matter?

[Florena]

Songweaver even being there was an accident and not part of Garrosh's plans from the beginning. He had no way to know that Jaina would send Kirin Tor Aid, no way of knowing she would actually convince the council to aid her (the fact that Aethas was the deciding vote implies that two members of the six voted against it), and unless Aethas really IS in Garrosh's pocket then he would have no way of knowing he'd send Songweaver.

[Skytotem]

Songweaver even being there was an accident and not part of Garrosh's plans from the beginning. He had no way to know that Jaina would send Kirin Tor Aid, no way of knowing she would actually convince the council to aid her (the fact that Aethas was the deciding vote implies that two members of the six voted against it), and unless Aethas really IS in Garrosh's pocket then he would have no way of knowing he'd send Songweaver.

Or one of the other sunreavers like Falyr Silverthorn gave Garrosh a heads up.


He did have to find out to have him ordered rescued after all.

[Florena]

Or one of the other sunreavers like Falyr Silverthorn gave Garrosh a heads up.


He did have to find out to have him ordered rescued after all.

Yeah, I'm not saying Garrosh didn't know about Songweaver, but he couldn't have planned for Songweaver to be there when he sacked Northwatch and had his plans set in motion. Fact of the matter is he could have blown up Theramore without losing a single horde life, and the fact that he wanted to have a battle just for the joy of it anyway disgusted Baine.

[Skytotem]

Yeah, I'm not saying Garrosh didn't know about Songweaver, but he couldn't have planned for Songweaver to be there when he sacked Northwatch and had his plans set in motion. Fact of the matter is he could have blown up Theramore without losing a single horde life, and the fact that he wanted to have a battle just for the joy of it anyway disgusted Baine.

The idea that theramoore could'v been blown up without a horde life lost is weird to me, we had to kill the gryphon rider/master and such and that was really only possible because the majority of the forces were elsewhere because of the feint.

[Aquamonkey]

I don't really follow, at this point wouldn't it not matter?

Because Songweaver succeeding in tearing down the gate would hurt the plan of bombing Theramore. Even moreso than sending in the fleet. At least the fleet could set up a contain and prevent ships from leaving. Tearing down the gate would open up a direct avenue for the ground forces to penetrate into Theramore (something Garrosh didn't want). Plus, there's the fact that Songweaver was caught as a spy. His capture and interrogation was a major liability, the Alliance could have learned about the bomb. The best course of action would be for Songweaver to maintain his cover. To actually fortify the gate so Garrosh can maintain the "failed siege" facade.

But it's just bad writing so they can have an excuse to cast doubt on the Sunreavers to set up the Purge.

[RyanEX]

Because Songweaver succeeding in tearing down the gate would hurt the plan of bombing Theramore. Even moreso than sending in the fleet. At least the fleet could set up a contain and prevent ships from leaving. Tearing down the gate would open up a direct avenue for the ground forces to penetrate into Theramore (something Garrosh didn't want). Plus, there's the fact that Songweaver was caught as a spy. His capture and interrogation was a major liability, the Alliance could have learned about the bomb. The best course of action would be for Songweaver to maintain his cover. To actually fortify the gate so Garrosh can maintain the "failed siege" facade.

But it's just bad writing so they can have an excuse to cast doubt on the Sunreavers to set up the Purge.

Or maybe he intended to drop the bomb regardless. His aim was two - fold. Gather as much Alliance in one place as possible, and wipe Theramore off the map. If he took Theramore by force of arms it would give credence to his propoganda that the day of the Alliance was over and then he'd bomb Theramore anyway...with or without the prisoners in it.

If they failed to take Theramore normally, the bomb was in play to destroy the city anyway. So he wins regardless.

[Skytotem]

Because Songweaver succeeding in tearing down the gate would hurt the plan of bombing Theramore. Even moreso than sending in the fleet. At least the fleet could set up a contain and prevent ships from leaving. Tearing down the gate would open up a direct avenue for the ground forces to penetrate into Theramore (something Garrosh didn't want). Plus, there's the fact that Songweaver was caught as a spy. His capture and interrogation was a major liability, the Alliance could have learned about the bomb. The best course of action would be for Songweaver to maintain his cover. To actually fortify the gate so Garrosh can maintain the "failed siege" facade.

But it's just bad writing so they can have an excuse to cast doubt on the Sunreavers to set up the Purge.

You have a very inflexible view of military planning.

[dejec1989]

said it before and I'll say it again " exile Azeroth from Azeroth!" everyone wins

[leokegan]

why isn't this thread locked

[Aquamonkey]

You have a very inflexible view of military planning.

You give too much credit to Garrosh's military aptitude and/or the writers.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 08:11 PM ----------

Or maybe he intended to drop the bomb regardless. His aim was two - fold. Gather as much Alliance in one place as possible, and wipe Theramore off the map. If he took Theramore by force of arms it would give credence to his propoganda that the day of the Alliance was over and then he'd bomb Theramore anyway...with or without the prisoners in it.

If they failed to take Theramore normally, the bomb was in play to destroy the city anyway. So he wins regardless.

My entire point was that Garrosh's whole plan was only to drop the bomb. He never intended to capture Theramore by conventional means. That's why he sent his fleet away. Songweaver's action threatened the bomb plan. If Songweaver was successful, Garrosh would have had to ignore the gaping hole in Theramore's defenses. That would have been mighty suspicious. Or he would have bombed his own people inside Theramore and caused a civil war within the Horde (even moreso than what's coming). Anyone who supports Garrosh would have turned against him if he bombed his own troops after being victorious in Theramore.