Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Magpai]

It's fiction and fiction needs conflict. It's a little silly to hold Varian to real world political standards.

[Skytotem]

It's common knowledge that the Night Elves don't (or didn't) like any other races aside from their own, I'm not going to go through tons of stuff for you because it is there if you really want to see it.

If you honestly believe that they were totally okay with the Highborne practicing arcane magic, I am surprised because I'd imagine you'd know better than that. They basically told them to stop or get out. The Highborne (who are also to blame) chose to leave and start their own city which drew Sargeras to Azeroth (the War of the Ancients). With better tempering they could have found a compromise instead of it being all or nothing.

Dark Trolls were harmless, very peaceful, and at one point were allies with the Night Elves - if you know anything about them. They are the Trolls that evolved into Night Elves. Illidan killed everyone (EVERYONE) in their settlement because it would get him to Tyrande faster and no one felt bad about it because they were an insignificant race.

I know the story, but given that Illidan gave up who he was to save the world - mostly Tyrande - I imagine that it was a little bit much for Malfurion to exile him like that. He saved the world, something Malfurion himself couldn't do (something Malfurion still can't do). Night Elves though, they don't compromise. Or didn't.

They have changed a bit, which is good. I mean the druids that became the first Worgen are prime examples of their arrogance and prejudice, and it was with a lot of guilt that the Night Elves took them in. Night Elves are beginning to accept the wrong things they have done, but it doesn't mean they're completely absolved. They have a very wide storyline, and it has a lot of potential for positive growth.

1. During the war of the ancients that was true but not so much in WC3 and on.

2. Um... What? Everyone loved Azshara, they didn't start up their own city that was the bloody capital Zin-Azshari, they were Azshara's favored caste. The standard night elves didn't like the Highborne because they were supremacist jerks, not because of magic.

3. Yeah there's NOTHING to suggest Dark Trolls were harmless, peaceful, or allies with the Night elves. You're making that up. They DID evolve into them, that's verified by Brann but the rest is bunk. There's also NOTHING about Illidan killing dark trolls anywhere dunno where you got that.

4. Illidan could've just destroyed Gul'dans skull rather than eating its power. Perhaps he could've even killed tichondrius if he'd put aside his pride to ask Malfurion and Tyrande for help.

5. How was that an example of prejudice? Malfurion quelled that whole thing personally, this isn't really an example of them doing something wrong since it was handled in-house.

[Uennie]

1. During the war of the ancients that was true but not so much in WC3 and on.

2. Um... What? Everyone loved Azshara, they didn't start up their own city that was the bloody capital Zin-Azshari, they were Azshara's favored caste. The standard night elves didn't like the Highborne because they were supremacist jerks, not because of magic.

3. Yeah there's NOTHING to suggest Dark Trolls were harmless, peaceful, or allies with the Night elves. You're making that up. They DID evolve into them, that's verified by Brann but the rest is bunk. There's also NOTHING about Illidan killing dark trolls anywhere dunno where you got that.

4. Illidan could've just destroyed Gul'dans skull rather than eating its power. Perhaps he could've even killed tichondrius if he'd put aside his pride to ask Malfurion and Tyrande for help.

5. How was that an example of prejudice? Malfurion quelled that whole thing personally, this isn't really an example of them doing something wrong since it was handled in-house.

You're right, I'm a bit fuzzy right now, but you are right. I mixed up a couple things, and that was my fault. She moved into a new palace, not a city. However, night elves (the regular ones) did not like the use of the arcane and very much resented it, that's a fact ... and it did led to the War of the Ancients. The Highborne's arrogance let them separate themselves (and I already said they were to blame for that). That doesn't mean that the Highborne weren't Night Elves though, because they were. So Highborne arrogance = Night Elf arrogance. Same thing.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dark_troll <Allies, and zero conflict of them attacking night elves, only the other way around. Grom did kill one settlement but the Night Elves regularly took out others.

It's really just my personal opinion that Malfurion was too hard on Illidan and that opportunities for negotiation or compromise were ignored. Constellation stated that the Elves were a shoot first ask questions later sort of race, and it's reflected in how they handle things.

I was speaking more on that the Night Elves that became the Worgen separated themselves because they believed they were superior. What resulted of that was imprisonment (deserved), and the fact that the Night Elves showed remorse for what happened (even though it was the Wolf druid's fault), and welcomed them back was admirable. Night Elves don't generally give forgiveness easily.

[Skytotem]

1. No, Night Elves EVERYWHERE were all about the arcane power, a few old folks warned against it but far and away the greater part of the populace adored it, what led to the war of the ancients was not anyone being unhappy just with the use of magic, but rather the fact that magic was used to let demons in and kill them.

2. Um, you do realize that in the RTS creep encampments would be stationary right? Them having not attacked the Night Elves is probably a game mechanic. Again, my point was that Dark trolls are not harmless, peaceful, and the whole 'allies with night elves' thing came about as a result of everybody fighting the legion at the time, it's like saying the orcs are allies of the night elves.

3. Okay but saying Illidan 'gave up who he was' is incorrect, he willingly drained the skull saying 'the power should be mine!' this isn't something he did unwillingly, or even to save others, he did it out of power hunger.

4. Sorry, misunderstood. I still think the nelfs get lousy handling ingame.

[Matgan]

Varian mistrust of the horde is justified for the events the orcs did to him as a child, also what about Garrosh bigotry to the other horde races. Tauren are nothing more to garrosh but his water-gathers, to garrosh,Vol'jin and his people are nothing more then primitive savages, Goblins are nothing more then to him then his tools to make weapons of mass destruction, the forsaken are nothing more then cannon fodder, check Slyvannas short story where Garrosh sent mostly forsaken to attack the Greymane wall. Oh, and now the blood elves who Garrosh just see's has his researchers on magical secrets, and he sacrificed blood elves in the sunreavers to become a scapegoat for Jaina to blame them. Also lets for forget that Garrosh stole the focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight to make that abomination of a mana bomb for Theramore. Garrosh was always a tool and a dictator who only cares for the orcs not the other races. Hes no better then Gul'dan or Blackhand and hes turned the orcs into the bloodthristy warmongering conqueors they were in Warcraft 1. So next time you blame Varian for the Garrosh's actions, maybe you should think more clearly that hes just a asshole. Also i am sure Thrall will be fixing that mistake he made when the Cataclysm started. the Horde are already thinking rebellion as of now.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And Trassk got banned...

[Uennie]

1. No, Night Elves EVERYWHERE were all about the arcane power, a few old folks warned against it but far and away the greater part of the populace adored it, what led to the war of the ancients was not anyone being unhappy just with the use of magic, but rather the fact that magic was used to let demons in and kill them.

2. Um, you do realize that in the RTS creep encampments would be stationary right? Them having not attacked the Night Elves is probably a game mechanic. Again, my point was that Dark trolls are not harmless, peaceful, and the whole 'allies with night elves' thing came about as a result of everybody fighting the legion at the time, it's like saying the orcs are allies of the night elves.

3. Okay but saying Illidan 'gave up who he was' is incorrect, he willingly drained the skull saying 'the power should be mine!' this isn't something he did unwillingly, or even to save others, he did it out of power hunger.

4. Sorry, misunderstood. I still think the nelfs get lousy handling ingame.

I don't know about that, but I'll take your word for it. It still doesn't change my point that Night Elves are extremely elitist and arrogant even towards how they treat their own kind - to a level that is self-destructive.

When Grom Hellscream first arrived in Ashenvale Forest, he found and destroyed a dark troll settlement.[5] Later, small settlements of dark trolls were destroyed by Tyrande, Malfurion, and their army during their search for the Druids of the Talon.[6] However, a group of dark trolls named the ShadowTooth Clan joined the night elves in the Battle of Mount Hyjal.

This is actually part of the lore, not just part of an in-game mechanic. The Dark Trolls even allied with the Night Elves after being nearly wiped out, and regardless an alliance is an alliance. Dark Trolls have never been known to instigate anything because they're so secretive. Admittedly that doesn't equal being peaceful, but it does mean they were a non-threat.

He did it to save Tyrande. Willingly, but to save Tyrande (and with it the rest of the world). He did it because he loved her, and he believed the power would help him finally win her heart (subject to debate). That was Illidan's entire motivation, for everything, his love for Tyrande. He made some poor choices to be sure, and it brings in the question of the end justifying the means, but to me it was still harsh of Malfurion to do what he did. But at the end of the day, Illidan was a Night Elf and was a product of that - the same as his brother.

One could argue that the Night Elves are almost too passionate, but that is both a pro and a con. It makes them unique (not many other Azerothian races ARE passionate about many things, zealotry doesn't count).

[xezar]

Nvm, user was already mass-corrected by others.

[Uennie]

Nvm, user was already mass-corrected by others.

Corrected by one person, and I admitted I was wrong because I was remembering things incorrectly. I'm fine with being corrected, you know. I don't take it personally. This is a discussion not a fight to the death.

[Florena]

Trassk, I know the other thread is stupid, but you're not making much of a point by making another stupid thread to mirror it.

Varian had anger issues pre MoP, but...

he tried to negotiate trade with Thrall in the Theramore summit before the Twilight's Hammer derailed it.

He allowed Saurfang to claim his son's body, showing compassion even to the enemy.

He aggreed to a truce following the lich king's death.

He did not, unlike Garrosh, take advantage of the Cataclysm to attack his enemies.

Varian is a flawed character, but as far as aggression goes he's not on the same level as Garrosh, and unlike Garrosh doesn't antagonize and abuse those under his rule.

[Deathstyle]

Stupid thread... Varian is turning out to be quite a valiant leader. He is learning how to be more than just a headstrong, war crazed king and you should know his background and his accomplishments before making this accusation.

[Florena]

Stupid thread... Varian is turning out to be quite a valiant leader. He is learning how to be more than just a headstrong, war crazed king and you should know his background and his accomplishments before making this accusation.

This thread is just Trassk venting, because to be blunt he's a huge Thrall fan, many would say fanboy, and he was annoyed at people saying he's responsible for Garrosh's crimes in the other thread. So he made this stupid thread to show how ridiculous the other thread is even though anybody that reads the other thread has already seen his arguments.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This thread is just Trassk venting, because to be blunt he's a huge Thrall fan, many would say fanboy, and he was annoyed at people saying he's responsible for Garrosh's crimes in the other thread. So he made this stupid thread to show how ridiculous the other thread is even though anybody that reads the other thread has already seen his arguments.

I love Thrall to and I think the thread was dumb to begin with but hey.... whatevs. I stay away from Lore arguments these days because...well..it seems deluded and not actually serious or factual anymore.

[Florena]

I love Thrall to and I think the thread was dumb to begin with but hey.... whatevs. I stay away from Lore arguments these days because...well..it seems deluded and not actually serious or factual anymore.

They do tend to go in circles.

[Aquamonkey]

He did not, unlike Garrosh, take advantage of the Cataclysm to attack his enemies.

To keep his people from dying of famine...

[Justignoreme]

Dark Trolls have never been known to instigate anything because they're so secretive. Admittedly that doesn't equal being peaceful, but it does mean they were a non-threat.

that part should just end with a ...

Not a bloody bit is known about them, and they never bothered writing about them in any capacity until some git in cdev was like "Durrrr let's make Night Elves come from them coz we haven't fucked up and shit on their lore enough."

To keep his people from dying of famine...

A famine brought on by their Allies (goblins) and ineptitude.

[Mormolyce]

Yeah but WCIII is considered canon so ... yeah. Still counts.

Well yes it's canon. I think you kind of have to take the factional loyalty in WoW with a grain of salt really, the exact split down the middle of Horde vs. Alliance actually doesn't make so much sense in the modern Warcraft universe. Like if you take a Blood Elf through Silverpine or something... why am I helping these people? If anything I think WoW's internal logic is a bit non-canon.

[Uennie]

Well yes it's canon. I think you kind of have to take the factional loyalty in WoW with a grain of salt really, the exact split down the middle of Horde vs. Alliance actually doesn't make so much sense in the modern Warcraft universe. Like if you take a Blood Elf through Silverpine or something... why am I helping these people? If anything I think WoW's internal logic is a bit non-canon.

*shrug* I can't explain it, I don't always agree with it, but I can't control what's canon or not. I'd say that was unfortunate but I'd probably kill off a lot of people if I could control it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:03 AM ----------

that part should just end with a ...

Not a bloody bit is known about them, and they never bothered writing about them in any capacity until some git in cdev was like "Durrrr let's make Night Elves come from them coz we haven't fucked up and shit on their lore enough."

A famine brought on by their Allies (goblins) and ineptitude.

It's still lore, I'm sorry you don't like it. What is known, makes them a non-threat and a victim of the wars around them. It's just how it is.

[Florena]

that part should just end with a ...

Not a bloody bit is known about them, and they never bothered writing about them in any capacity until some git in cdev was like "Durrrr let's make Night Elves come from them coz we haven't fucked up and shit on their lore enough."

A famine brought on by their Allies (goblins) and ineptitude.

No, the goblins messed up the water. Durotar had problems in The Shattering, which I assume only got worse after the Shattering actually happened.

A bit off topic, but anyone else annoyed that that book was called The Shattering but it ends BEFORE the titular event? I mean, it was a good book. A good prelude to Cataclysm. But the title had me thinking we would at LEAST get a few last minute pages of world wide destruction like in The Brother's War.

[Mormolyce]

that part should just end with a ...

Not a bloody bit is known about them, and they never bothered writing about them in any capacity until some git in cdev was like "Durrrr let's make Night Elves come from them coz we haven't fucked up and shit on their lore enough."

All Elves and Trolls have a common ancestor, doesn't have anything specifically to do with Dark Trolls, that's just a tribe that happened to live near Nordrassil.

Elves and Trolls being related actually makes perfect sense, because otherwise Azeroth has two distinct intelligent indigenous races that happen to look quite similar.

In fact every life form on the planet not seeded by the Titans must have evolved there, so they're all actually related. It's just a question of how closely.