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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    With the amount of work and effort the devs have done to make Varian likeable, I don't think they'll agree to just make him disappear.

    Varian is here to stay for better or worse. You'll have to deal with it.
    His likeability has come at the expense of other characters. They made Garrosh the biggest douchebag in the world to clearly contrast as far worse than Varian at his worst. A lot of Varian's development is locked away in books as well but a lot more of it has to do with building him up as an avatar of Lo'gosh which kinda sucks as its a free pass to automatically convince other Alliance races, like the Night Elves and the Gilneans that he's a chosen one. Rather than having to prove himself to them, they have to prove themselves to him. It's a wretched bit of development.

  2. #42
    I find it astonishing that people have such heated debates over a made up story.

  3. #43
    From wowpedia , I presume this is the first time Garrosh has met Varian ( in order to make this shorter i will remove things that aren't related to those two) :
    Theramore peace summit :

    "Thrall brought with him Garrosh Hellscream back to Azeroth to be his advisor. Later on the retired gladiator master Rehgar Earthfury also became one of Thrall's advisors. Rehgar and Garrosh used to be in disagreement with each other: while Garrosh wanted to destroy the Alliance, who he considers the Horde's enemies, and take Azeroth for their own, Reghar wanted to remain open to diplomacy with the Alliance and conserve their treaty of non-agression with Theramore.

    Garrosh, alongside Thrall, traveled in a zeppelin to Theramore, where Varian and Thrall had a peaceful discussion with an eye toward mutual gain; though Garrosh thought it better for the Horde to take what they needed by force rather than exchange their resources."
    After that Varian had to leave because of scourge invasion in other places and Theramore became attacked just as they were exiting the gates by the twilight hammer group and varian thought it was a trap to get him killed when he saw Garona and blamed the horde, then horde blamed the alliance ( the usual confusion of YOU DID THIS!) nothing really relevant.

    So if i understand right from that , Garrosh already hated the alliance and wanted to take things by force because...well just because. And Varian wanted to talk peace with Thrall while Garrosh wanted the opposite way before that meeting.

    And yes i do think Thrall is the only one to blame and not Varian too ( tho' i didn't read whatever thread was made about it just going on what you said) because he had to choose who would best fit the job as warchief and he knew of Garrosh's feelings from the start and saw them getting worse.

    Also at the wrathgate there was some sort of "peace" or "first steps towards one AGAIN" which obviously Varian give the OK to, but because of Putress he saw it as a horde trap since he didn't know at that time what happened. And you wanted Varian at that time to be nice and kind so he won't anger the lower ranking orc which no one knew would become warchief one day?
    Last edited by Anagram; 2013-02-25 at 02:25 AM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Im not debating anything. The whole point of this topic is to whine about another thread and you dont like people disliking Thrall or orcs in general. As for the other point, a lot of players know that certain races are hogging all of the story and spotlight, either because the writers dont care, cant think of anything, or fanboys of their own stupid character and would rather center the game about how awesome thrall is.

    If you tried out the Worgen starting zone, youd realize their story is there to boost how awesome Sylvannas and the forsaken are, but then it stops abruptly when you get to Darkshore. Its almost like Worgen dont exist in lore when you ding level 11. Any sort of conclusion, you have to play horde because like I said, the Worgen exist to give the zombies and their stupid over used leader a better story.

    Gnomes dont have lore. Why? I dont know. Check the above reasons why the writers are slacking on their own universe. I use one as an avatar because she's cute, but thats it.
    No, sorry, see the whole point of this thread was drawn from the that the other thread came from alliance fanboyism, and one whos started yet another retarded hate thread against Thrall. I know as hell I didn't start that, but i'll be dammed if I don't pick up the thread.

    Second, people want to find an excuse to blame someone, yet completely ignore others who, if anything, are more responsible for the events in the current story. alliance don't want to believe one of there own is responsible for anything wrong, hell, Jaina apparently can kill anyone she likes now because of theramore, and can wash her hands of it after.

    Btw, if you want to discuss that subject, take it to the other thread, this ones reserved for people who realize its Varian fault for the path the story has gone down on.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    With the amount of work and effort the devs have done to make Varian likeable, I don't think they'll agree to just make him disappear.

    Varian is here to stay for better or worse. You'll have to deal with it.
    It's a shame they couldn't make him likable without degrading other racial leaders, turning him into a wolf god thing, or making him High King.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    From wowpedia , I presume this is the first time Garrosh has met Varian ( in order to make this shorter i will remove things that aren't related to those two) :
    Theramore peace summit :

    "Thrall brought with him Garrosh Hellscream back to Azeroth to be his advisor. Later on the retired gladiator master Rehgar Earthfury also became one of Thrall's advisors. Rehgar and Garrosh used to be in disagreement with each other: while Garrosh wanted to destroy the Alliance, who he considers the Horde's enemies, and take Azeroth for their own, Reghar wanted to remain open to diplomacy with the Alliance and conserve their treaty of non-agression with Theramore.

    Garrosh, alongside Thrall, traveled in a zeppelin to Theramore, where Varian and Thrall had a peaceful discussion with an eye toward mutual gain; though Garrosh thought it better for the Horde to take what they needed by force rather than exchange their resources." After that Varian had to leave because of scourge invasion in other places and Theramore became attacked just as they were exiting the gates by the twilight hammer group and varian thought it was a trap to get him killed when he saw Garona and blamed the horde, then horde blamed the alliance ( the usual confusion of YOU DID THIS!) nothing really relevant.

    So if i understand right from that , Garrosh already hated the alliance and wanted to take things by force because...well just because. And Varian wanted to talk peace with Thrall while Garrosh wanted the opposite way before that meeting.

    And yes i do think Thrall is the only one to blame and not Varian too ( tho' i didn't read whatever thread was made about it just going on what you said) because he had to choose who would best fit the job as warchief and he knew of Garrosh's feelings from the start and saw them getting worse.

    Also at the wrathgate there was some sort of "peace" or "first steps towards one AGAIN" which obviously Varian give the OK to, but because of Putress he saw it as a horde trap since he didn't know at that time what happened. And you wanted Varian at that time to be nice and kind so he won't anger the lower ranking orc which no one knew would become warchief one day? Really?
    Garrosh already disliked Varian because of the theramore event. If you read what I said, you'd know that Garrosh had already meet Varian in theramore, and tried to discuss peace, Garrosh even having a conversation with Anduin.. and then when the twilight hammer attack, Varian accused Thrall of horde trechery, and tried to attack him, in front of Garrosh, making him see the kind aggressive nature Varian had. So Garrosh already wanted to take a pop at Varian for this.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You don't seem to get the point do you?

    Why do you think Garrosh went to war and caused this to happen? Did he see the sweetness and love the alliance had to it and thought 'I want to attack them?'. NO, he Saw Varian wanting to attack the horde at every turn, and decided he had enough of Varians BS.

    Varian started this.
    I don't even think you believe this yourself. The other thread just made you angry, and by trying to cast a Shift Blame spell you hope to come to Thrall's protection. Your dedication to him is kind of cute, by the way (and I am not trying to be snide here).

    Garrosh is a warmonger because he wants to prove himself. It is in the end above all vanity. After suffering from depression and a massive inferiority complex back in the country (the hinterlands of space) some dude comes along and tells him his father was a great hero, and he might very well be destined to become one as well. And how does one become a hero? That dude (Thrall) has the answer: be a crazy and super aggressive war leader. Thrall's idolization of the bad man Grom caused today's Garrosh far more than anything Varian could have ever done.
    Now in a new world, ready to prove himself, Garrosh wants war. He needs to be able to prove himself, so war is what he wants. It does not matter if the human king is an ass or a saint - Garrosh would have sought war either way. Saurfang knew it. Vol'jin saw it. Just Thrall was blind, because he loved Grom, and he saw some of him in Garrosh.

    And just as Thrall loved Grom, you are loving Thrall, and you are just as blind. Varian is certainly not a good leader, or at least not until recently (whether or not he is now is debatable). But he did not make Garrosh who he is today.
    Last edited by iscalio; 2013-02-25 at 02:29 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    His likeability has come at the expense of other characters. They made Garrosh the biggest douchebag in the world to clearly contrast as far worse than Varian at his worst. A lot of Varian's development is locked away in books as well but a lot more of it has to do with building him up as an avatar of Lo'gosh which kinda sucks as its a free pass to automatically convince other Alliance races, like the Night Elves and the Gilneans that he's a chosen one. Rather than having to prove himself to them, they have to prove themselves to him. It's a wretched bit of development.
    That Lo'gosh BS still kind of upsets me. Wolves are supposed to be a big part of orc culture and it made no sense for Varian to be chosen. If only there were some powerful beast that represented the Alliance that they could have used instead...
    Last edited by leaks; 2013-02-25 at 02:33 AM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    I don't even think you believe this yourself. The other thread just made you angry, and by trying to cast a Shift Blame spell you hope to come to Thrall's protection. Your dedication to him is kind of cute, by the way (and I am not trying to be snide here).

    Garrosh is a warmonger because he wants to prove himself. It is in the end above all vanity. After suffering from depression and a massive inferiority complex back in the country (the hinterlands of space) some dude comes along and tells him his father was a great hero, and he might very well be destined to become one as well. And how does one become a hero? That dude (Thrall) has the answer: be a crazy and super aggressive war leader. Thrall's idolization of the bad man Grom caused Garrosh far more than anything Varian could have ever done.
    Now in a new world, ready to prove himself, Garrosh wants war. He needs to be able to prove himself, so war is what he wants. It does not matter if the human king is an ass or a saint - Garrosh would have sought war either way. Saurfang knew it. Vol'jin saw it. Just Thrall was blind, because he loved Grom, and he saw some of him in Garrosh.

    And just as Thrall loved Grom, you are loving Thrall, and you are just as blind. Varian is certainly not a good leader, or at least not until recently (whether or not he is now is debatable). But he did not make Garrosh who he is today.
    I don't just believe it, I know it, since I saw in when it happened back in the pre wrath times and that comic was first brought out.

    you want to hold blame against Garrosh, thats obvious, he's a giant tool, everyone agrees with this now. But trying to ignore why Garrosh turned down this path, the character responsible for starting it all, and saying its Thralls fault when he didn't instigate Garrosh's aggression against the alliance (Thrall was trying to teach him ways of peace before Varian shoot that down).

  10. #50
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    you don't have anything to add to this thread or subject, so your just trolling.
    *Sighs* Fine.

    1.) You blame the fallout at Theramore on Varian. He doesn't even attack Thrall, he points his sword at him. That's it. Can you blame him? The woman killed his father and successfully turned the Horde and Alliance against one another at the peace meeting. He blames the Horde for trying to kill him, but nothing is done of it. Garrosh blames Twilight's Hammer on the Alliance, Varian does the same back. I'm not sure how this is an actual point. The fact that Varian even decides to investigate before actually placing legitimate blame on the Horde is more than enough to counter your BS argument.

    2.) You suggest that Varian sees Thrall and goes garblefargle crazy and attacks him. I've actually read the comic, and that isn't what happens. They sit down and have an entire meeting and even agreed to trade lumber for the Horde's copper/hides before the attack happens. Subjective inclusion much?

    3.) I'd counter your other points but you don't have any. You link the Ulduar video and act like Varian is the one who is responsible for what happened there. Garrosh is the antagonizer. Its obvious for everyone who doesn't have an abhorrent bias.

    4.) You're just flat out wrong about the Plague. "A weapon to defend against the Alliance?" Right, as if every example in the game of Sylvanas ISN'T her attacking other people. She never uses the plague defensively once. She sprays it all over Northrend, She sprays it all over Gilneas, she sprays it all over Hillsbrad. She never uses it defensively ever.

    5.) The Horde blatantly betray whatever supposed neutrality there was in Icecrown by attacking the Alliance. Where does the Alliance do this? They don't. They try to find out wtf is going on. There's ample evidence that the Horde decided to attack the Alliance because they could.

    Garrosh already disliked Varian because of the theramore event. If you read what I said, you'd know that Garrosh had already meet Varian in theramore, and tried to discuss peace, Garrosh even having a conversation with Anduin.. and then when the twilight hammer attack, Varian accused Thrall of horde trechery, and tried to attack him, in front of Garrosh, making him see the kind aggressive nature Varian had. So Garrosh already wanted to take a pop at Varian for this.
    This never happens. There's only 1 peace meeting. And thats when shit goes down. At the very least before you start spouting your biased nonsense you could go read the WoWPedia page.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-02-25 at 02:38 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Since his introduction into wow as this new king figure, Varian was the instigator of this war we are in now. He started the fire, and he fueled the flames that made Garrosh's already obvious anger issues into full blown rage.
    Not sure I agree with this, surely Garona was the instigator? She was affiliated with the Twilight Council, and provoked Varian into not trusting the orcs (Varian made the assumption that she still worked for them, and given the circumstances he had no evidence to the contrary). Yes, if he had been more level headed this war would have been headed off, but the orcs did nothing to rectify this misunderstanding. Both parties are equally to blame.

  12. #52
    I like Warcraft lore, but I won't claim to know as much as most of you here. I will say that I like neither Varian or Garrosh, really. I will say that (generally) I think that people are responsible for their own actions despite the instigating factor. If someone punches me in the nose and I get angry and retaliate physcially, nobody "made" me do that. The anger and action was something I chose. In the same way, I don't think anyone "made" Garrosh have anger issues or "made" them worse. He was just unwilling to see past his anger to more constructive ways of dealing with the situation. Not taking sides here though, I think they're both dicks.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidsteel View Post
    I find it astonishing that people have such heated debates over a made up story.
    I find it astonishing that your personal interests are interesting to you.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Garrosh already disliked Varian because of the theramore event. If you read what I said, you'd know that Garrosh had already meet Varian in theramore, and tried to discuss peace, Garrosh even having a conversation with Anduin.. and then when the twilight hammer attack, Varian accused Thrall of horde trechery, and tried to attack him, in front of Garrosh, making him see the kind aggressive nature Varian had. So Garrosh already wanted to take a pop at Varian for this.
    I looked back in this thread and didn't see you write anything like that ( maybe i missed it) so can you quote yourself where you said that? Also i looked on wowpedia again and Before this Theramore agreement where there is no mention of garrosh talking peace with Varian or Anduin , there is only about his early life, life in Nagrand and First time in Orgrimmar where he disliked how orcs were living, nothing about what you said. Btw i just searched Garrosh on that website , in case you got your info by writing something else, so i don't know.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    No, sorry, see the whole point of this thread was drawn from the that the other thread came from alliance fanboyism, and one whos started yet another retarded hate thread against Thrall. I know as hell I didn't start that, but i'll be dammed if I don't pick up the thread.

    Second, people want to find an excuse to blame someone, yet completely ignore others who, if anything, are more responsible for the events in the current story. alliance don't want to believe one of there own is responsible for anything wrong, hell, Jaina apparently can kill anyone she likes now because of theramore, and can wash her hands of it after.

    Btw, if you want to discuss that subject, take it to the other thread, this ones reserved for people who realize its Varian fault for the path the story has gone down on.
    Although I skimmed through the first couple of pages, I dont see anyone (yet) that are siding with you and your "HUMAN VARIAN IS FAULT FOR E'RYTHING! THRALL IS GOOD AND SAVE DA WORLD! HE NO DO WRONG AND HE HAS NICE ASS TOO!" So really, you wanted to start a new thread so everyone would have to see your post that you want to stick up for your Green Jesus.

    I also dont see anyone saying alliance is pure and totally innocent of guilt either. Thrall has the biggest responisibly over the war because he was smart enough to trust a gorup of zombies, and put a crazy horde fanboy in charge while he goes off and attends Messiah duties, only to come back and retake the throwne after he's declared himself to be Green Jesus. The lore writers cocked up with the story so far, one of whichi s making Garrosh the hated scapegoat, so all the problems die with him when the expansion ends. Apparently, Thrall fanboys like you love that idea.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    which takes place after garrosh's attacks upon ashenvale, which were the first events following the shattering.
    its even noted that garrosh took advantage of the weakened defenses.
    Mmm, I'm not so sure which one came first actually. Do you have a source on that? Wowpedia claims that the Ashenvale Offensive occurred "shortly after the Shattering" (it's from the novel Wolfheart which is set in the "aftermath of the Cataclysm"), whereas it says Camp Taurajo was destroyed "during the events of Cataclysm". Not clear exactly when that is - it could mean during the events of the expansion however it is already destroyed and Mulgore is already besieged at the start of the Cataclysm quests.

    All he really did is step up the existing conflict in Ashenvale in any case. That has been going on since the Third War. Ashenvale is disputed territory. The Alliance hardly has any legitimate claim on Mulgore. Although undoubtedly Varian's attack was intended to draw Horde forces south and pull pressure off of Ashenvale and Darkshore.

    End of the day though, they're both aggressive jerks. Garrosh probably more so than Varian - the latter seems to be mellowing with age while Garrosh is just getting worse. Still if Thrall were in charge of the Horde and Jaina took over the Alliance there'd be no war and it'd be called World of Cuddlecraft wouldn't it? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    Actually, Thrall is far more to blame for that than Varian. It was his Horde that caused the Wrathgate incident. Had he been a better leader, maybe he could have prevented that. Varian had reasons to be an angry hothead in Dalaran (Wrathgate) and Theramore (Garona), even if they were bad reasons. Garrosh was just aggressive because he was an insecure man trying to emulate his daddy.
    If you'll recall, the Wrathgate was all Varimathras' doing. Can you really blame the Horde Warchief for the actions of a freaking Dreadlord? At best you could question Sylvanas' judgement at keeping one by her side...
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  17. #57
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    You should watch the videos since the destruction of Theramore cause the only thing holding Jaina from kicking the shit out of the horde is Varian.

  18. #58
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    You should watch the videos since the destruction of Theramore cause the only thing holding Jaina from kicking the shit out of the horde is Varian.
    Seriously, also this^

    Jaina would have flown Dalaran to Orgrimmar and destroyed the entire place by now if it wasn't for Varian claiming that the Alliance will not fight the War in the way the Horde have (You know, using weapons of mass destruction).

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    I also dont see anyone saying alliance is pure and totally innocent of guilt either. Thrall has the biggest responisibly over the war because he was smart enough to trust a gorup of zombies, and put a crazy horde fanboy in charge while he goes off and attends Messiah duties, only to come back and retake the throwne after he's declared himself to be Green Jesus. The lore writers cocked up with the story so far, one of whichi s making Garrosh the hated scapegoat, so all the problems die with him when the expansion ends. Apparently, Thrall fanboys like you love that idea.
    Didn't they basically put Garrosh in charge to explain why things like Ashenvale continued to happen? Because that never made a lot of sense when Thrall was around. The thing is, if Thrall acted perfectly in character as Warchief then there would be peace and that would be the end of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  20. #60
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post

    This never happens. There's only 1 peace meeting. And thats when shit goes down. At the very least before you start spouting your biased nonsense you could go read the WoWPedia page.
    I'm done debating with you if you can't even find out about these event as it happened.

    And if all you use is wowpedia for reference, that says it all.


    http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/15/kn...-the-prophecy/

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