I find it astonishing that people have such heated debates over a made up story.
From wowpedia , I presume this is the first time Garrosh has met Varian ( in order to make this shorter i will remove things that aren't related to those two) :
Theramore peace summit :
"Thrall brought with him Garrosh Hellscream back to Azeroth to be his advisor. Later on the retired gladiator master Rehgar Earthfury also became one of Thrall's advisors. Rehgar and Garrosh used to be in disagreement with each other: while Garrosh wanted to destroy the Alliance, who he considers the Horde's enemies, and take Azeroth for their own, Reghar wanted to remain open to diplomacy with the Alliance and conserve their treaty of non-agression with Theramore.
Garrosh, alongside Thrall, traveled in a zeppelin to Theramore, where Varian and Thrall had a peaceful discussion with an eye toward mutual gain; though Garrosh thought it better for the Horde to take what they needed by force rather than exchange their resources." After that Varian had to leave because of scourge invasion in other places and Theramore became attacked just as they were exiting the gates by the twilight hammer group and varian thought it was a trap to get him killed when he saw Garona and blamed the horde, then horde blamed the alliance ( the usual confusion of YOU DID THIS!) nothing really relevant.
So if i understand right from that , Garrosh already hated the alliance and wanted to take things by force because...well just because. And Varian wanted to talk peace with Thrall while Garrosh wanted the opposite way before that meeting.
And yes i do think Thrall is the only one to blame and not Varian too ( tho' i didn't read whatever thread was made about it just going on what you said) because he had to choose who would best fit the job as warchief and he knew of Garrosh's feelings from the start and saw them getting worse.
Also at the wrathgate there was some sort of "peace" or "first steps towards one AGAIN" which obviously Varian give the OK to, but because of Putress he saw it as a horde trap since he didn't know at that time what happened. And you wanted Varian at that time to be nice and kind so he won't anger the lower ranking orc which no one knew would become warchief one day?
Last edited by Anagram; 2013-02-25 at 02:25 AM.
Second, people want to find an excuse to blame someone, yet completely ignore others who, if anything, are more responsible for the events in the current story. alliance don't want to believe one of there own is responsible for anything wrong, hell, Jaina apparently can kill anyone she likes now because of theramore, and can wash her hands of it after.
Btw, if you want to discuss that subject, take it to the other thread, this ones reserved for people who realize its Varian fault for the path the story has gone down on.
Garrosh is a warmonger because he wants to prove himself. It is in the end above all vanity. After suffering from depression and a massive inferiority complex back in the country (the hinterlands of space) some dude comes along and tells him his father was a great hero, and he might very well be destined to become one as well. And how does one become a hero? That dude (Thrall) has the answer: be a crazy and super aggressive war leader. Thrall's idolization of the bad man Grom caused today's Garrosh far more than anything Varian could have ever done.
Now in a new world, ready to prove himself, Garrosh wants war. He needs to be able to prove himself, so war is what he wants. It does not matter if the human king is an ass or a saint - Garrosh would have sought war either way. Saurfang knew it. Vol'jin saw it. Just Thrall was blind, because he loved Grom, and he saw some of him in Garrosh.
And just as Thrall loved Grom, you are loving Thrall, and you are just as blind. Varian is certainly not a good leader, or at least not until recently (whether or not he is now is debatable). But he did not make Garrosh who he is today.
Last edited by iscalio; 2013-02-25 at 02:29 AM.
Last edited by leaks; 2013-02-25 at 02:33 AM.
"Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."
you want to hold blame against Garrosh, thats obvious, he's a giant tool, everyone agrees with this now. But trying to ignore why Garrosh turned down this path, the character responsible for starting it all, and saying its Thralls fault when he didn't instigate Garrosh's aggression against the alliance (Thrall was trying to teach him ways of peace before Varian shoot that down).
*Sighs* Fine.you don't have anything to add to this thread or subject, so your just trolling.
1.) You blame the fallout at Theramore on Varian. He doesn't even attack Thrall, he points his sword at him. That's it. Can you blame him? The woman killed his father and successfully turned the Horde and Alliance against one another at the peace meeting. He blames the Horde for trying to kill him, but nothing is done of it. Garrosh blames Twilight's Hammer on the Alliance, Varian does the same back. I'm not sure how this is an actual point. The fact that Varian even decides to investigate before actually placing legitimate blame on the Horde is more than enough to counter your BS argument.
2.) You suggest that Varian sees Thrall and goes garblefargle crazy and attacks him. I've actually read the comic, and that isn't what happens. They sit down and have an entire meeting and even agreed to trade lumber for the Horde's copper/hides before the attack happens. Subjective inclusion much?
3.) I'd counter your other points but you don't have any. You link the Ulduar video and act like Varian is the one who is responsible for what happened there. Garrosh is the antagonizer. Its obvious for everyone who doesn't have an abhorrent bias.
4.) You're just flat out wrong about the Plague. "A weapon to defend against the Alliance?" Right, as if every example in the game of Sylvanas ISN'T her attacking other people. She never uses the plague defensively once. She sprays it all over Northrend, She sprays it all over Gilneas, she sprays it all over Hillsbrad. She never uses it defensively ever.
5.) The Horde blatantly betray whatever supposed neutrality there was in Icecrown by attacking the Alliance. Where does the Alliance do this? They don't. They try to find out wtf is going on. There's ample evidence that the Horde decided to attack the Alliance because they could.
This never happens. There's only 1 peace meeting. And thats when shit goes down. At the very least before you start spouting your biased nonsense you could go read the WoWPedia page.Garrosh already disliked Varian because of the theramore event. If you read what I said, you'd know that Garrosh had already meet Varian in theramore, and tried to discuss peace, Garrosh even having a conversation with Anduin.. and then when the twilight hammer attack, Varian accused Thrall of horde trechery, and tried to attack him, in front of Garrosh, making him see the kind aggressive nature Varian had. So Garrosh already wanted to take a pop at Varian for this.
Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-02-25 at 02:38 AM.
I like Warcraft lore, but I won't claim to know as much as most of you here. I will say that I like neither Varian or Garrosh, really. I will say that (generally) I think that people are responsible for their own actions despite the instigating factor. If someone punches me in the nose and I get angry and retaliate physcially, nobody "made" me do that. The anger and action was something I chose. In the same way, I don't think anyone "made" Garrosh have anger issues or "made" them worse. He was just unwilling to see past his anger to more constructive ways of dealing with the situation. Not taking sides here though, I think they're both dicks.
I also dont see anyone saying alliance is pure and totally innocent of guilt either. Thrall has the biggest responisibly over the war because he was smart enough to trust a gorup of zombies, and put a crazy horde fanboy in charge while he goes off and attends Messiah duties, only to come back and retake the throwne after he's declared himself to be Green Jesus. The lore writers cocked up with the story so far, one of whichi s making Garrosh the hated scapegoat, so all the problems die with him when the expansion ends. Apparently, Thrall fanboys like you love that idea.
All he really did is step up the existing conflict in Ashenvale in any case. That has been going on since the Third War. Ashenvale is disputed territory. The Alliance hardly has any legitimate claim on Mulgore. Although undoubtedly Varian's attack was intended to draw Horde forces south and pull pressure off of Ashenvale and Darkshore.
End of the day though, they're both aggressive jerks. Garrosh probably more so than Varian - the latter seems to be mellowing with age while Garrosh is just getting worse. Still if Thrall were in charge of the Horde and Jaina took over the Alliance there'd be no war and it'd be called World of Cuddlecraft wouldn't it? :P
You should watch the videos since the destruction of Theramore cause the only thing holding Jaina from kicking the shit out of the horde is Varian.
And if all you use is wowpedia for reference, that says it all.