Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Cloud2038]

I dont count a magazine as canon... sorry. Metzen himself wrote the original lore. That is what is canon. But what does it matter. The lore gets changed so often that soon we will find out the orcs are native to azeroth and that this is their home with the way blizz changes their minds every year. I will choose to believe the longer and more established lore than that from a comic

[Uennie]

I dont count a magazine as canon... sorry. Metzen himself wrote the original lore. That is what is canon. But what does it matter. The lore gets changed so often that soon we will find out the orcs are native to azeroth and that this is their home with the way blizz changes their minds every year. I will choose to believe the longer and more established lore than that from a comic

Another case of "I don't like it so it's not canon", eh ...

[Justignoreme]

So you're saying that in the lore that they didn't attack anyone and were instead attacked, that didn't exist? Because it's RIGHT there.

Reading comprehension issues all over here. Look, for the last time. You are throwing out all these descriptions of them and what they are etc. I am saying all they are is dark skinned trolls with nothing for a back story. No lore exists as to why they were removed or seen as a threat by either the orcs or the night elves, or why they sided and fought along side the night elves rather than flee to their burrows as hide. Nothing exists. nothing. Yes, that is the only lore we have, and it amounts to jackshit. Which is a problem for their inflated prominent role.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:30 AM ----------

I dont count a magazine as canon... sorry. Metzen himself wrote the original lore. That is what is canon. But what does it matter. The lore gets changed so often that soon we will find out the orcs are native to azeroth and that this is their home with the way blizz changes their minds every year. I will choose to believe the longer and more established lore than that from a comic

Metzen approves everything that goes into canon lore. We can sit back and wait for retcons, deal with it, or stop taking interest. This ofc excludes Me'dan and Knaak's take on WoTA. Fuck them both.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:30 AM ----------

You are really getting worked up over this.

persistent bullshit in the face of facts gets annoying.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I dont count a magazine as canon... sorry. Metzen himself wrote the original lore. That is what is canon. But what does it matter. The lore gets changed so often that soon we will find out the orcs are native to azeroth and that this is their home with the way blizz changes their minds every year. I will choose to believe the longer and more established lore than that from a comic

Then Varian's backstory has no lore by your logic.

[Cloud2038]

I dont like it. Thats obvious. But two forms of canon contradict eachother here. So in this case I choose to believe the lore that has been around since the beginning

[Hitei]

He openly attacked the Warchief, told them peace was over. He DECLARED war, and Garrosh started the actual fighting of it.

This is only a valid argument if you completely ignore the fact that the orcs have been continuously encroaching on Night Elven lands the entire length of WoW, and that the Forsaken have made attacks on the remnants of Lordaeron in Hillsbrad, as well as Dalaran.

If you really think that the reason Garrosh is pushing against the Alliance is because of anything Varian has personally said or done, you're silly.

[Uennie]

Reading comprehension issues all over here. Look, for the last time. You are throwing out all these descriptions of them and what they are etc. I am saying all they are is dark skinned trolls with nothing for a back story. No lore exists as to why they were removed or seen as a threat by either the orcs or the night elves, or why they sided and fought along side the night elves rather than flee to their burrows as hide. Nothing exists. nothing. Yes, that is the only lore we have, and it amounts to jackshit. Which is a problem for their inflated prominent role.

According to Freya, Cenarius, and the Tribunal of Ages, it was a tribe of dark trolls that eventually evolved into the night elves.[3]
According to scattered reports, dark trolls have gray to black skin and lead a mostly subterranean existence. Alleged sightings of dark trolls usually involve hulking and brutish creatures who attack with little tactical planning or coordinated effort. Thus, it has been theorized that dark trolls are much less intelligent than other trolls.[1]
There is no evidence that the dark trolls have ever formed a civilization or nation. Indeed, their estimated numbers are so few that their existence as a distinct category of troll is considered highly questionable. In consequence, it seems likely that if the dark trolls do exist, they are derived from a single troll tribe. Some have decided to classify this species as the fifth category of trolls.[1] However, only one organization is known so far: The ShadowTooth Clan.[4]
When Grom Hellscream first arrived in Ashenvale Forest, he found and destroyed a dark troll settlement.[5] Later, small settlements of dark trolls were destroyed by Tyrande, Malfurion, and their army during their search for the Druids of the Talon.[6] However, a group of dark trolls named the ShadowTooth Clan joined the night elves in the Battle of Mount Hyjal.[4]
As of Cataclysm, the dark trolls are nowhere to be found on Hyjal. Brann Bronzebeard discovered that the Twilight's Hammer wiped them out. It's unknown if any Dark trolls remain, if some do remain it wouldn't be farfetched for the remnants to join the Zandalari.

I can't do much more aside from providing that. Details might be sketchy, but you'd think that it would be noted if the Dark Trolls at least showed some form of aggression.

Again, can't say or do anything further. So I guess agree to disagree. It's no worries to me either way.

[Keristrasza]

Well, this is a silly thread made in retaliation to another silly thread, but I just want to point out that Varian's march out of Theramore to the gates of Mulgore (and the razing of Camp Taurajo) was the first major act of war. So it's not entirely stupid to place some of the blame for the conflict at his feet.

Hrm, I don't see a reason to blame him at all if you actually LOOK at what happened during cataclysm.

Alliance: Raze Camp-T and take over some of the southern barrens....
Horde: Destroy South Shore, attack Dark Shore, Defile Ashenvale, annihilate an alliance out post in Ashenvale, lay siege to Astranaar

the list of what the horde have done against the alliance is far worse and MUCH larger than an attack on one town, a town where the commander in charge did all he could to ensure that most all the inhabitants could get out ALIVE. I did the quest chain and yet horde players love saying how evil the alliance is for that attack but with only one half of the story they are blind to the truth.

[Justignoreme]

I can't do much more aside from providing that. Details might be sketchy, but you'd think that it would be noted if the Dark Trolls at least showed some form of aggression.

Again, can't say or do anything further. So I guess agree to disagree. It's no worries to me.

fair enough

[Florena]

He openly attacked the Warchief, told them peace was over. He DECLARED war, and Garrosh started the actual fighting of it.

Actually no. There was a truce after ICC, according to The Shattering. Yes, Varian declared war but then he didn't act on it, and Garroshs' attacks on Ashenvale have NEVER BEEN HINTED to be in response to this. He was going after resources he needed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Actually no. There was a truce after ICC, according to The Shattering. Yes, Varian declared war but then he didn't act on it, and Garroshs' attacks on Ashenvale have NEVER BEEN HINTED to be in response to this. He was going after resources he needed.

No hinting indeed. Garrosh strikes me as a guy who doesn't give a shit.

[Aquamonkey]

Horde should stop messing up their own resources first.

Im sorry, but resources in Alliance land isn't greed. And relief aid? To the people who want to kill and maim the Alliance all day? They are Alliance, not the First World IRL. Horde has resources to survive too, they just have no skills. At least the Orcs don't. Tauren do, Forsaken do, Blood Elves do, Trolls do. If the Horde wasnt so adept at stabbing the Alliance in the back, trade would've remained open...

Is it Garrosh's fault that they built Orgrimmar in a desert? Is it Garrosh's fault that they are in a famine? He's just trying to solve the dire situation as fast as he can. It's not like starvation is going to hold of on killing everyone while they research alternative resources. Fucking grab into the closest thing you can to prevent yourself from dying tomorrow, then deal with the long term.

[Justignoreme]

Is it Garrosh's fault that they built Orgrimmar in a desert?

No, Thrall knew his people needed to eat a lot of humble pie.

Is it Garrosh's fault that they are in a famine?

yes, he never bothered to ask his allies for anything resembling assistance, which they clearly could give.

He's just trying to solve the dire situation as fast as he can.

Ya, more of his orcs died in the war than starvation.

It's not like starvation is going to hold of on killing everyone while they research alternative resources. Fucking grab into the closest thing you can to prevent yourself from dying tomorrow, then deal with the long term.

The long term being the enemy you invaded during their crisis comes back and wipes you off the face of the planet. If only the cdev had the spine to write that.

[Skytotem]

Is it Garrosh's fault that they built Orgrimmar in a desert? Is it Garrosh's fault that they are in a famine? He's just trying to solve the dire situation as fast as he can. It's not like starvation is going to hold of on killing everyone while they research alternative resources. Fucking grab into the closest thing you can to prevent yourself from dying tomorrow, then deal with the long term.

Thing is, we're never shown any starving orcs.

We're never shown any happy orcish families flush with food and putting the lumber from Ashenvale to use in Org.

Blizz sucks at keeping the world / story cohesive.

Hell, the tauren story says the goblins are polluting the Southfury river from Azshara... but none of their buildings in Azshara are anywhere NEAR the river.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 12:16 AM ----------

Ya, more of his orcs died in the war than starvation.

Bullshit. Numbers. Now.

[Justignoreme]

Bullshit. Numbers. Now.

None died from starvation at all. It's speculation on the costs of his war. Casualties are implied as being very high. Their starvation worries on the other hand seem like a lot of stinky bullshit, Orcs hardly come off as desperate, malnourished survivalists trying to cling to life.

[Deleted]

None of it makes any sense. Varian accused Thrall of treachery because he saw him with the killer of his father. Varian started no war. At all. Well Trassk got banned anyway, so.

[Aquamonkey]

yes, he never bothered to ask his allies for anything resembling assistance, which they clearly could give.

If the cdevs wrote that, there wouldn't have been any conflicts with the Alliance. It's as much on the other races for not providing assistance. They should know that there was a famine in happening in Orgrimmar. Or it could have been that a massive chasm going through the Barrens cut off supply lines from their closest allied city.

Ya, more of his orcs died in the war than starvation.

Because he prevented them from dying of starvation.

The long term being the enemy you invaded during their crisis comes back and wipes you off the face of the planet. If only the cdev had the spine to write that.

Them's the breaks. It still would have been an easy decision. Die for certain tomorrow from starvation or maybe die in a war a week/month from now.

[Eats Compost]

This entire "starving in the desert" thing irks me. Was there ever actually any exploration of this, or was the only time it got mentioned during Garrosh's conversation with Vol'jin?

If so, it seems like a handwave justification for the war at best. You can't suggest that people are or were starving and not show it at all. That's a pretty big issue.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The only time starvation gets mentioned is apparently by Thrall via the 5.1 questline. OF ALL TIMES TO MENTION IT.

[Justignoreme]

If the cdevs wrote that, there wouldn't have been any conflicts with the Alliance. It's as much on the other races for not providing assistance. They should know that there was a famine in happening in Orgrimmar.

Yes, so because the cdevs wrote it that way, they wrote that the Orcs haveno practical skills whatsoever, or any interest in them. They know how to steal, kill, pillage and loot. Anything else is of no value. Thrall tried to break them from this mindset. Garrosh encourages and rewards it.

Or it could have been that a massive chasm going through the Barrens cut off supply lines from their closest allied city.

that happened after the Orcs launched into Ashenvale on their thieving campaign of terror.

Because he prevented them from dying of starvation.

unrealistic time table and they were likely never starving anyways. they wanted wood for more war machines...

Them's the breaks. It still would have been an easy decision. Die for certain tomorrow from starvation or maybe die in a war a week/month from now.

Unfortunately with the plot armour and bias the Orcs get, they will never be written as defeated, at the mercy of the people they tried to destroy. Never be written as suffering worse for their shit choices. They will not even have a dent because the mercy of the writers is upon them. The Alliance will suffer, the rest of the Horde will suffer, the Orcs will never suffer.