Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[SodiumChloride]

Overall, I find the story quite unsatisfying.

Characters "change" on a dime for no reason. Blizzard tries to force certain characters down the player base's throat. When that fails they put 180 degree turns on the character to try to get it to fit a new narrative.

Fail story writing IMHO. Even soap opera writers can do better. ><

[KrazyK923]

Your seriously telling me that the Nightelves had NO blame, if not most, in the situation in Ashenvale?

Dude, its their land being invaded. The Night Elves even willingly began trading lumber with the Horde before Twilight's Hammer screwed it up. They had absolutely no moral responsibility to do so. Ashenvale is Night Elven land.

[Eats Compost]

On the note of Varian blaming Thrall and Sylvanas for the Wrathgate incident, I think it's justified. I mean, Sylvanas put a dreadlord in a significant position of power in her city. A dreadlord. And Thrall just let this ride as well. It's not like Varimathras was a secret to him.

How can you possibly put a Dreadlord in the middle of your city and give him power, and then expect him not to betray you?

[Thrive]

You can blame the start of a War on somebody, but you can't pull off "X is the cause of all the evils of the world" without looking like a biased tool.

I completely disagree. The Orcs caused most of the situation in Draenor (though tainted by the demons), and I think the Night elves came very close to the same thing (though with some taint from demons).

[SodiumChloride]

Kalecgos (and to a lesser extent Thrall) talked her down from using the Focusing Iris and her army of Water Elementals from flattening Orgrimmar, but Varian has been keeping Jaina in check post-Dalaran. She finally circumvents his request in 5.2. From Dalaran until 5.2, she's been wanting to attack the Horde with the Kirin Tor, but Varian was telling her to wait. For as crazy as she is becoming, she's not batshit insane yet.

So she is more or less basically ignoring King Chin ...

[Eats Compost]

Your seriously telling me that the Nightelves had NO blame, if not most, in the situation in Ashenvale? Think what you will, but when one faction flat out attacks another, fully intending to completely wipe them out, then I think they hold a little if not a lot of the blame.

What would you do if demon-tainted creatures started encroaching on your territory and destroying your forest to build war machines?

It's Grom's fault for charging into uncharted territory and cutting down forests without any thought for the fact that someone may be there.

[KrazyK923]

The Orcs caused most of the situation in Draenor (though tainted by the demons), and I think the Night elves came very close to the same thing (though with some taint from demons).

And yet there was just an argument about the Draenei vs Orc blame for Draenor's outcome a week ago.

I think the difference is that the Night Elves took care of those within their ranks that stopped it. Just like Thrall is the one who stopped Grom the second time, and thus is ultimately responsible for Mannoroth's death.

So she is more or less basically ignoring King Chin ...

Yes, the Alliance troops in 5.2 are exclusively the Kirin Tor. At the end of the Alliance 5.1 chain, Jaina basically tells Varian to blow it out his ass and that she will no longer keep delaying her wrath against the Horde.

[Justignoreme]

Your seriously telling me that the Nightelves had NO blame, if not most, in the situation in Ashenvale?

With respect to the WoW timeline (the one that matters, the one where peace between the races had come and then gone), the Night Elves have 0 blame in the events that happened. BUt then I know you said, laughably, they should've just given up their home and resources to the Orcs and there would've been peace. Right...

Think what you will, but when one faction flat out attacks another, fully intending to completely wipe them out, then I think they hold a little if not a lot of the blame.

Which, if you bothered to read SHIT about Cataclysm, was entirely Garrosh's motives, while for the years from battle at Hyjal til the defeat of the Lich King, there was trade, peace treaty, and a cold war between the Night Elves and the Orcs as a greater part of the Alliance/Horde conflict. Garrosh's initial plan was to exile the Night Elves from their homeland. When that failed, on account of he wasn't strong enough, he settled for simple and easy genocide.

[SodiumChloride]

On the note of Varian blaming Thrall and Sylvanas for the Wrathgate incident, I think it's justified. I mean, Sylvanas put a dreadlord in a significant position of power in her city. A dreadlord. And Thrall just let this ride as well. It's not like Varimathras was a secret to him

How can you possibly put a Dreadlord in the middle of your city and give him power, and then expect him not to betray you?

Hindsight is 20/20. Sylvanas wasn't exactly spoil for choice in majordomo candidates either. The Forsaken aren't exactly a huge faction - that might be about to change though.

[Thrive]

With respect to the WoW timeline (the one that matters, the one where peace between the races had come and then gone), the Night Elves have 0 blame in the events that happened. BUt then I know you said, laughably, they should've just given up their home and resources to the Orcs and there would've been peace. Right...

Which, if you bothered to read SHIT about Cataclysm, was entirely Garrosh's motives, while for the years from battle at Hyjal til the defeat of the Lich King, there was trade, peace treaty, and a cold war between the Night Elves and the Orcs as a greater part of the Alliance/Horde conflict. Garrosh's initial plan was to exile the Night Elves from their homeland. When that failed, on account of he wasn't strong enough, he settled for simple and easy genocide.

Old grudges die hard, and a cold war is still a war, just fought in a different way.

[mordale]

T Night elves were responsible for destroying the empires of the original holder's of Azeroth, luring the Burning Legion to Azeroth, misusing ever single bit of power that was given to them, trusting in a leader that ended up re-summoning Rags to Hyjal. Arguably, every bad thing in Azeroth was thanks to Night Elf intrusion and use of fel energy. Well elves in general I suppose, the timeline gets iffy if you try to put the blame on High Elves or Night elves specifically..

the trolls were not the original holders of azeroth, they like many others are creations of the titans.

they trusted deathwing? its never stated who exactly summoned rag back to azeroth in cata.

they used arcane magic, thats what attracted the legion.
the night elves have never at large used fel magic, the only ones that did were the sect of demonhunters.

[Justignoreme]

Yes, the Alliance troops in 5.2 are exclusively the Kirin Tor. At the end of the Alliance 5.1 chain, Jaina basically tells Varian to blow it out his ass and that she will no longer keep delaying her wrath against the Horde.

Anddd a sunreaver agent, loyal to Garrosh, will get ahold of the Thunder King's crap Jaina stole during one of these wrathful conflicts, and he will use it against the Alliance and there's the "atrocity". Not really, but it is highly plausible, sadly.

[Eats Compost]

Hindsight is 20/20. Sylvanas wasn't exactly spoil for choice in majordomo candidates either. The Forsaken aren't exactly a huge faction - that might be about to change though.

Still isn't a good reason to trust a Dreadlord, of all things. There is no way that making a Dreadlord your majordomo could ever be considered a good idea.

This isn't hindsight, either. It was pretty obvious that Dreadlords were traitrous assholes before Sylvanas appointed Varimathras. Hell, it was obvious that demons on the whole were treacherous assholes at that point. Was it ever not obvious that Varimathras would eventually betray her?

[Uennie]

Still isn't a good reason to trust a Dreadlord, of all things. There is no way that making a Dreadlord your majordomo could ever be considered a good idea.

This isn't hindsight, either. It was pretty obvious that Dreadlords were traitrous assholes before Sylvanas appointed Varimathras. Hell, it was obvious that demons on the whole were treacherous assholes at that point. Was it ever not obvious that Varimathras would eventually betray her?

Just a little bit of history repeating ;D ...

I'm not a huge fan of Sylvanas, the similarities she shows to Arthas is just mind-blowing.

[leaks]

the trolls were not the original holders of azeroth, they like many others are creations of the titans.

they trusted deathwing? its never stated who exactly summoned rag back to azeroth in cata.

they used arcane magic, thats what attracted the legion.
the night elves have never at large used fel magic, the only ones that did were the sect of demonhunters.

Trolls were there before the Titans even showed up. They are a native species to the planet, they were not created.

[Justignoreme]

Old grudges die hard, and a cold war is still a war, just fought in a different way.

The only one keeping a grudge is Garrosh and his youngling orc followers whom never fought in the third war. Night Elves weren't going into Orc land for anything. Night Elves rallied under the Command of Saurfang in Silithus as well. This crap of "old grudges" is awefully one-sided. You, and dozens of horde fanbois, seem to take issue with the Night Elves defending their home and resources.

[mordale]

Hindsight is 20/20. Sylvanas wasn't exactly spoil for choice in majordomo candidates either. The Forsaken aren't exactly a huge faction - that might be about to change though.

the bitch queen isn't exactly a military genius either.

she did destroy a bridge and then basically left the scourge alone, she didn't press her advantage in use of ranged warfare.
and she only sent i think 1 messenger to warn the city to evacuate.

overall, shes pretty dumb.

[Thrive]

the trolls were not the original holders of azeroth, they like many others are creations of the titans.

they trusted deathwing? its never stated who exactly summoned rag back to azeroth in cata.

they used arcane magic, thats what attracted the legion.
the night elves have never at large used fel magic, the only ones that did were the sect of demonhunters.

The Troll's were there before the Titans ever visited, as were the old gods, elementals, and insectoids.
I also meant Fandral, who may not have summoned him but became his second hand man, and yes I did mean Arcane magic, though their was the use of fel magic as well. I will admit it was exagerated, but it was meant to be to show that everything can be blamed on someone else.

[Justignoreme]

Trolls were there before the Titans even showed up. They are a native species to the planet, they were not created.

And they were hardly peaceful, as we can see by their friendship with the Mogus. Perhaps the troll scum thought they could try to enslave the Night Elves, and overstepping their bounds resulted in the fastest destruction of an empire in the history of Azeroth.

[SodiumChloride]

Just to try to shoot the fox. WoW conflicts are more or less "grey" like real life ones - with the exception of the Burning Legion and the Old Gods.

No one is really at fault. It's mostly a very unfortunate chain of events, one leading to another, perpetuate by "neutral" but flawed characters.