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  1. #141
    I can't be the only one thinking that OP makes these threads just to watch people argue about orcs. Orks are better anyway. Put Orks on Azeroth.
    Just calm down.
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  2. #142
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    I can't be the only one thinking that OP makes these threads just to watch people argue about orcs. Orks are better anyway. Put Orks on Azeroth.
    Of course, it's a Salandrin thread, I am somewhat amazed he hasn't been banned yet, usually it only takes a few days.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  3. #143
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Indeed they have, but they can't simply glorify war the way they do it now, they will want to live up to that and in order to do so have to unleash an even greater war to surpass those before them and to carve a better future for their people, which means someone like garrosh is bound to be born in such a society.

    (It is one of the reason I sabotage the genophage cure, if wrex died in that playthrough ;P)
    Thing is it's weird for them to have glorified it in the first place, their standard of living couldn't have been all that great back in WC2 what with all the infighting and overpopulation...

    I can get glorifying -battle- but it feels like the Orcs all randomly lost their brains in Wotlk.
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  4. #144
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Thing is it's weird for them to have glorified it in the first place, their standard of living couldn't have been all that great back in WC2 what with all the infighting and overpopulation...

    I can get glorifying -battle- but it feels like the Orcs all randomly lost their brains in Wotlk.
    Well the orcs have a problem, only a few old are left and many very young orcs eager to prove themselves, the generation in between is almost nonexistent, which is why Garrosh is so popular among the Orcs. The young ones don't know the consequences of war yet.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    No earthly idea, we don't even know how big Azeroth is 'lorewise'.

    For all we know EK and Kalimdor together could be the size of texas because Mulgore's apparently small enough for you to stand at one end and see the other :\
    No, that's not ENTIRELY true. There's some references to travel time in Arthas, and I think Tides of Darkness (the novel). I BELIEVE Warcraft III has a couple too, but they might be just general times and nothing as specific as other sources.

    They really only have them for Lordaeron though. Still it's certainly bigger than Texas.

    Actually I think The Last Guardian has some info on air travel times. Gryphons and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Well the orcs have a problem, only a few old are left and many very young orcs eager to prove themselves, the generation in between is almost nonexistent, which is why Garrosh is so popular among the Orcs. The young ones don't know the consequences of war yet.
    Absolutely.

    This is by far the biggest reason the Orcs today aren't doing so well in the eyes of the other races.

    During their rebuilding phase, it seems as though Thrall focused too much on teaching the orcs about their shamanistic culture and too little on teaching them the horrors war inflicts upon your people. The orcs weren't really a warring race... they loved battle, but I don't think that really means too much, since it can be curbed by setting up arenas for duels (a strategy the first horde implemented to minimize the in-fighting they suffered after killing the draenei and prior to the Dark Portal opening up). Right now, that ignorance got them a warmonger for a Warchief, and they're about to get a healthy spoonful of reality come 5.4.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-02-26 at 11:26 PM.

  6. #146
    I feel it should be said that when the orcs first came to Ashenvale humans were also there fighting the orcs and the Night Elves, being led by Tyrande, were killing them both until Malfurion showed up and said that they could both be useful allies against the burning legion / scourge. The orcs were free of the curse at the time of their entering Ashenvale and meeting the Night Elves. Grom accepted the blood of Mannoroth into his clan a second time during the orcs migration to Kalimdor. Grom's clan was the only clan that was corrupted at that time and I'm sure we all know about how Grom helps kill Mannoroth. For Malfurion to have just woken up from the Emerald Dream I find it very unlikely for the Night Elves to even be aware that the orcs were ever cursed. Especially what with how the Orcs had never been on Kalimdor before then. So the argument that the Night Elves were defending their homeland from the "Legion's vanguard" is immediately debunked solely based on how the Orcs and Night Elves had never met before now.
    Last edited by Narmar; 2013-02-27 at 12:10 AM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Narmar View Post
    I feel it should be said that when the orcs first came to Ashenvale humans were also there fighting the orcs and the Night Elves, being led by Tyrande, were killing them both until Malfurion showed up and said that they could both be useful allies against the burning legion / scourge. The orcs were free of the curse at the time of their entering Ashenvale and meeting the Night Elves. Grom accepted the blood of Mannoroth into his clan a second time during the orcs migration to Kalimdor. Grom's clan was the only clan that was corrupted at that time and I'm sure we all know about how Grom helps kill Mannoroth. For Malfurion to have just woken up from the Emerald Dream I find it very unlikely for the Night Elves to even be aware that the orcs were ever cursed. Especially what with how the Orcs had never been on Kalimdor before then. So the argument that the Night Elves were defending their homeland from the "Legion's vanguard" is immediately debunked solely based on how the Orcs and Night Elves had never met before now.
    A blue revealed that Cenarius sensed the lingering taint on the orcs, the reason why their skin is still green even after freeing themselves from the Legion, and thought them to be demons or the allies of demons, and that's why he attacked. It doesn't mention the NElfs specifically but I would assume he's tell those he fought with of it.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  8. #148
    What are you even talking about? The Orcs seem to like harsh environments, they aren't complaining about where Orgrimmar is situated. Durotar isn't even a desert it's just a hot plain or something.

    And frankly I don't understand why Outland hasn't crumbled into the void by now.
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What are you even talking about? The Orcs seem to like harsh environments, they aren't complaining about where Orgrimmar is situated. Durotar isn't even a desert it's just a hot plain or something.

    And frankly I don't understand why Outland hasn't crumbled into the void by now.
    There are complaints in The Shattering and Heart of War if I'm not mistaken.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    A blue revealed that Cenarius sensed the lingering taint on the orcs, the reason why their skin is still green even after freeing themselves from the Legion, and thought them to be demons or the allies of demons, and that's why he attacked. It doesn't mention the NElfs specifically but I would assume he's tell those he fought with of it.
    Maybe, but I always thought they were mostly annoyed because they were chopping down trees.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 12:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    There are complaints in The Shattering and Heart of War if I'm not mistaken.
    Oh. The crappy novels. I guess that explains it.
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    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Maybe, but I always thought they were mostly annoyed because they were chopping down trees.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 12:25 AM ----------



    Oh. The crappy novels. I guess that explains it.
    The novels and short stories actually, for the most part, tell stories and develop characters better than the game itself.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  12. #152
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    So this is becoming a new thing then?

    Draenei should be exiled to Argus! why? because that's where they bloody well came from so they can go back there!

    Forsaken should be "exiled" to the grave, they shouldn't be alive anyway right!?

    Orcs should indeed be exiled to Draenor, how dare they attempt to flee a shattered and dead world!

    Humans should be exiled to Northrend with their Vrykul Ancestors!

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The novels and short stories actually, for the most part, tell stories and develop characters better than the game itself.
    They develop them MORE, not BETTER.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    They develop them MORE, not BETTER.
    That's absolutely untrue.

    Unless you can say why Blizzard's writing and storytelling is technically flawed, then it's all just opinion, which means little when discussing the competency of a writer.

    Games are terrible for fleshing out specific plotlines or characters compared to novels, mainly because games show things from a third person perspective. Novels allow you to get inside a person's head, see what they're actually thinking, which makes more complex characteristics and themes easier to show.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-02-27 at 12:35 AM.

  15. #155
    After watching the cinematic 4/6 from the Orc campaign from WC3 RoC it is my understanding at least that Cenarius only attacks the Orcs after the Peons begin cutting down the trees. He at least doesn't state anything openly about how he believes the orcs are tainted

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Narmar View Post
    After watching the cinematic 4/6 from the Orc campaign from WC3 RoC it is my understanding at least that Cenarius only attacks the Orcs after the Peons begin cutting down the trees. He at least doesn't state anything openly about how he believes the orcs are tainted
    That was a fleshing out of his thought process by one of the Dev's. This information only came to light relatively recently.

  17. #157
    I knew this would be a Salandrin thread right after seeing its title.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    That's absolutely untrue.

    Unless you can say why Blizzard's writing and storytelling is technically flawed, then it's all just opinion, which means little when discussing the competency of a writer.

    Games are terrible for fleshing out specific plotlines or characters compared to novels, mainly because games show things from a third person perspective. Novels allow you to get inside a person's head, see what they're actually thinking, which makes more complex characteristics easier to show.
    Yes yes obviously novels are a deeper medium than games. That doesn't mean the quality of the novels is as good as the games.

    For example, Varian's entire backstory. For example, Me'dan. For example, Broxigar the time travelling Orc who stabbed Sargeras in the foot. Okay so some of these are from the comics, but still.

    And sure you can say everything is subjective and then inform me that this crap is up to the standard of the game's background lore. But I'm not going to believe you all the same.

    P.S. Games are not terrible for storytelling, they are simply different mediums and they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
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  19. #159
    The Patient Mizuisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    2) Goblins should be exiled to Draenor so they can pollute a dead husk of a world no one cares about instead of one people count on a clean environment for survival.
    3) Goblin death knights should be flushed down the drain of the twisting nether.
    Hey hey heyy wait - thats going a little far now isn't it?

  20. #160
    If you don't like the novels, fair enough. I don't defend everything in the novels, and I haven't touched the comics myself which is where Varian's backstory and Med'an come form. (Though I don't have a problem with Varian's backstory for the most part, I just think the who 'split into two' thing was lame and unnecessary. But I find the storytelling of the novels to be, for the most part, superior to the story and character development in game.

    That's not to say all the good is in the novels and all the bad is in game. Knaaks novels for example have some character related troubles, but I think Golden's novels are much better. But I point to Thrall as one example. His character is handled much better by Christie Golden than in the Elemental Bonds questline. The novels and short stories actually shed light on Garrosh's psyche and motivations yet the games squander it.

    If you don't like the novels, again that's fair, but imo they do a much better job at storytelling than the game. Not necessarily because the in game writers are bad, but because they have an advantage given the medium. I'm looking forward to seeing how the new author handles the Vol'jin novel.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

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