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  1. #1

    Five rogues in arena

    TLDR: some theorycrafting and questions for the rogue community regarding multiboxing 5 rogues in 5v5 arena.

    My rogues recently hit 90 and will be gearing up once 5.2 hits. I built this team specifically because the new talents in 5.2 and the possibility that they would be viable in 5v5 arena.

    A few things to start:
    (a) I'm multiboxing these guys so micro control is not possible, but extreme focus is
    (b) The goal is to hit 1500 arena, which may not seem like much for many, but that is considered successful for a multiboxer

    Theorycrafting that welcomes criticism and my general questions to the community:

    (1) all rogues will be sub spec, and likely using Cloak and Dagger (C&D) and Marked for Death (MfD). Marked for Death is still questionable as I may not need it and may get more usage out of Shuriken Toss (ST). After reading the comments below, I would appreciate feedback on if MfD is needed or if I can get away with ST instead. I plan on using Subterfuge and I'm hoping for a kill before my toons even appear on the enemies screen, assuming I'm not in a flare.

    (2) the general strategy is to go for an immediate kill and then vanish. Prep, another immediate kill and then vanish again. I would be left with 5v3 at which point I can open again and hopefully get it to 5v2 by the time my rogues have to take any pressure from the other team. I realize this is extremely optimistic and I would appreciate any comments others have on how to exactly approach the situation.

    (3) the immediate kill strategy is to open using C&D with 1x cheap shot, and 4x ambush, followed by 5x 5cp eviscerates using MfD. Is that enough to kill most players? The reaction time for the player should only be about 1 second (the time between the first ambush and the eviscerate). Some may be able to react quickly enough, but I'm hoping the CS will force the use of a trinket and then use a defensive ability, which may be too fast of reaction time for the sub 2000 rated teams.

    I will likely use CoS for each kill cycle, though that will limit me to only popping out once a minute and make me vulnerable to the healers rezzing their dead. If they start rezzing I will be forced to start early at which point I will use Shadow Blades (do you think I should instead burn Shadow Blades on the first kill target to ensure it's a 5v4 match?)

    (4) the gearing plan is to go full PvP power, without ignoring any set bonus that gives agility (I will ignore resilience set bonuses and instead gem more PvP power). I know most rogues stack resilience in PvP and this is very counter-intuitive, but my thought is if I am getting hit, since I don't have a healer then I've likely lost the game anyway.

    I will be stacking mastery as much as possible for the big eviscerates. I chose this over crit because I should be using a disproportionate amount of finishers with 5cp eviscerates (the quicker the target dies, the quicker I have another 5cp eviscerate ready).

    Another non-traditional route is I will likely use maces instead of daggers. The thought process is the slower weapons will have larger burst for the 1-2 swings I will get in (assuming SnD) before the target is dead. The disadvantage is that I lose out on the ability to use backstab, but due to positional requirements I can not reliably count on being behind the target while multiboxing (other than ambush through the use of C&D). I'm really not sold if the advantage of slower weapons is worth the reduced poison proc chance and would appreciate feedback.

    Regarding poisons, my thought is to possibly use all wound poison as it does a small amount more of initial damage. However, I'm really not sold on this approach as you do lose the DoT component of deadly poison and that DoT may be enough to finish someone off if I have to bailout before they're dead.

    The team is currently dwarves so I will get the mace expertise bonus. I chose dwarves due to stoneform and the ability to ensure I effectively vanish and drop all DoTs - please advise if you would use a different race for this unique approach. I'm guessing most would choose humans as there is the possibility for more damage. I thought ensuring a full vanish so I can setup another kill would be more important, but I could be mistaken.

    (5) I'm not sure what my kill order should be. Hunters seem to be the ones who could most hurt my comp with their flare, but I'm worried about deterrence. Similarly mages will be a pain with their frost nova, but I'm worried about their Ice Block. I'd appreciate feedback on what the kill order should be. Please note that I can open up with a garrote, cheap shot, 3x ambush (one less ambush, add garrote) for classes like a shaman (thunderstorm) or mage (blink). However, that does reduce my burst damage. Similarly, I can throw in a disarm to remove the shield for pallies (though they'll just bubble) and elemental shamans (though I'd likely rather have the garrote, CS, and 3 ambushes).

    (6) Another approach I can use, since I will be using C&D, is to attempt to kill two targets with one burst phase. The cycle would go something like: Tricks of the Trade, premed, SnD, energy recovery, shadow dance, shadow blades, CS/ambush x4, MfD, 5cp evisc x5, CS/ambush x4 new target, MfD, 5cp evisc x5, cloak, vanish, stoneform, sprint. Is that remotely possible? I can certainly macro the abilities, but that approach above is assuming the other players have fallen asleep. However, all that real action does theoretically happen in 4 seconds.

    Another tool that I can incorporate is smoke bomb. I'd appreciate feedback, but remember that I am in a GCD race, and every GCD I spend takes away from either an ambush or an eviscerate. I can also blind all other targets in range, but it uses a GCD unless it's pre burst (which means I can't be fighting a hunter).

    -----------
    Thanks to those who read. Hopefully it's a fun theorycrafting excercise for some, though I know it will brink out the multiboxing hate from others. I'd appreciate feedback from those who are more knowledgeable about rogues than I am, which is pretty much everyone on this sub-forum!

    If interested, here are a few links to my enhancement shaman multiboxing videos:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85L7-I-dsUU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV2Salnn2pw
    Last edited by Owltoid; 2013-02-25 at 03:18 PM.

  2. #2
    1. MfD is required. There's no added benefit to any of the 5 using Shuriken Toss unless they are somehow able to out-range 5 rogues at the same time.

    2. Sounds about right. Once you get it to 5v3 they'll surely be on to your game.
    You should, however, have access to at least 3 MfDs from the start: 1 on the first-dead, 2nd on the 2nd dead, and 3rd on the third-dead during Shadow Dance after you get Find Weakness up.

    3. You won't ensure anything that way: Shadow Blades basically cancels out Find Weakness, so the only thing you'd get from that Vanish would be the Shadow Blades damage and not the Find Weakness damage.
    Use Shadow Blades on the 3rd or 4th kill to ensure that one dies. Your strat for the first two makes sense, but the next 2 is where it will get hairy.

    4. Dwarves sounds fine to me. I might recommend going Night Elf for Shadowmeld, BUT that can only be done if you handle it PERFECTLY, and would take some practice.

    5. Not really sure about this one. Most classes/specs have some form of resistance or CD or something to weaken the burst, but I'd definitely recommend mage, warlock, or priest first. If they can be 1-shotted by Blade Lord's Unseen Strike if people aren't stacking correctly, they can be 1-shotted by 5 rogues.

    6. Whatever you end up doing, definitely do that Tricks of the Trade thing before you stealth. It'd make up for the fact that you're not putting up Rupture.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  3. #3
    First off, thank you for your helpful responses. Please see mine below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    1. MfD is required. There's no added benefit to any of the 5 using Shuriken Toss unless they are somehow able to out-range 5 rogues at the same time.
    Let me throw out another hypothetical to see if it changes your mind. With the initial pull and shadow blades, and assuming that at least one rogue crits once on the first hit (so 10 weapons strikes and at least 3 ambushes), then each rogue would have 4 CP on the target already. So MfD is only giving me that one additional combo point for the first target. If I take ST, then those last 2-3 enemies will be much easier to kill if they are kiting (though the counter argument is if they're kiting, then let them kite and go restealth).

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    2. Sounds about right. Once you get it to 5v3 they'll surely be on to your game.
    You should, however, have access to at least 3 MfDs from the start: 1 on the first-dead, 2nd on the 2nd dead, and 3rd on the third-dead during Shadow Dance after you get Find Weakness up.
    I still haven't decided when to and when not to use shadow dance. As long as there isn't a hunter to get me out of stealth, and the other team isn't rezzing their newly deceased, I should be able to waiting them out for one minute to do shadow dance and CoS again. It may be a situation where I try to kill the first target without dance and then watch what the other team is doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    3. You won't ensure anything that way: Shadow Blades basically cancels out Find Weakness, so the only thing you'd get from that Vanish would be the Shadow Blades damage and not the Find Weakness damage.
    Use Shadow Blades on the 3rd or 4th kill to ensure that one dies. Your strat for the first two makes sense, but the next 2 is where it will get hairy.
    I agree. The shadowblades should be saved for when I'm standing toe-to-toe with the opponents, not when trying for stealth kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    5. Not really sure about this one. Most classes/specs have some form of resistance or CD or something to weaken the burst, but I'd definitely recommend mage, warlock, or priest first. If they can be 1-shotted by Blade Lord's Unseen Strike if people aren't stacking correctly, they can be 1-shotted by 5 rogues.
    Any idea of how much 5cp eviscerates hit for against cloth in PvP (assume 65% resil)? I've done some math and my calculations show that there will be enough burst, but not by much.

  4. #4
    I would strongly recommend looking into combat. You can still open with ambush, and killing spree (or blade flurry + spree which should probably be the default anyway) will provide you with a moment of unpeelability. This will also have even more synergy with double maces. Most sprees on live are done with an offhand dagger as very few rogues are dedicated pvp combat enough to have two slow pvp weapons.

    You can blind from stealth, as well as sap, so you may be able to throw some early CCs.


    With the combat setup, you can have one cheap plus four ambushes. If you simul cloak+AR on that global your team will be unpeelable by everything but physical aoe stuns, and the second global could be your mfd, with the third as your eviscerate. Either there or before, you could spree.

    I really think spree should NOT be underestimated for this situation.

  5. #5
    The biggest appeal of sub is the mastery for large eviscerates and shadow dance mixed with cloak and dagger. I don't believe MfD is on the GCD.

    AR would be nice but I'm concerned with its 3-minute cooldown.

    Originally my thought was to shadow dance during my burst phases which would allow me to kill two targets before vanishing. However, if my goal is to only kill one target before vanishing, then the question becomes is sub, with high mastery, better than combat, with AR and killing spree. Having 50-60% stronger 5cp eviscerates with sub is a better candidate for bursting down one target, but having blade flurry + KS may be to hurt others while killing one. I think my biggest concern with combat is what do I do after I burn all cooldowns? After I vanish, do I have enough in the arsenal to take down another target with my opener before vanishing again?

    ETA: does the blade flurry nerf change your mind about combat rogues in this situation? Would blade flurry even be enough to put pressure on the healer or is it more of an annoyance?

    ETA2: you've really got me thinking about this blade flurry now. My thought is their team will likely bunch up behind a pillar as any one toon alone is in danger of getting demolished. If they bunch up then blade flurry is going to really cause some damage. What I would be missing is the combo ambush/5cp eviscerate whenever I pop shadow dance... that makes me as unkiteable as a rogue can get.
    Last edited by Owltoid; 2013-02-25 at 08:24 PM.

  6. #6
    man i would love to see that stuff haha

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Conviq View Post
    man i would love to see that stuff haha
    At a minimum, I will make some videos of it. I may start streaming on a regular basis in another week. I don't think there are any multiboxers streaming consistently at the moment, and it could be useful for non-multiboxers to see just how f***ing complicated it really is. Peeps think it's easy mode, and they're so very wrong.

  8. #8
    You have definately put alot of thought into this. Good luck and cant wait to see some vids.

  9. #9
    The Patient Ysoph's Avatar
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    If youre multiboxing 5 rogues, you can log in 4am and play 3s with 3+3 of your rogues.

    I know multibox is not violating EULA, but for me it is same shit done by same jerks.

    Infracted: flaming
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-02-26 at 09:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysoph View Post
    If youre multiboxing 5 rogues... ...3+3 of your rogues.
    Math fail.

    I use to box 3 ferals which I then turned into moonkins but never attempted arena with them. Im definitely going to check out your videos I'd love to see this in action.

  11. #11
    Keep your rogues as dwarves. The ability to drop all dots in pvp as a rogue is huge. That is the very reason I rolled a dwarf in the first place. Stoneform is simply the best pvp racial for a rogue in the game, period!

  12. #12
    5 combat rogues with KS!?! That would be pretty sick and you could easily bring down 1-2 very quickly. If they are close, BF and KS would be crazy. Maybe you run 2-3 of them combat?

  13. #13
    I'm relocating back to the USA and haven't been able to play or test the past few days. The rogues are sitting with full honor and justice waiting for 5.2. The combat idea is a really good one and I will test it out.

    One possibility, assuming no hunter so subterfuge will work, is to cheap shot all targets within LOS, next GCD redirect and ambush one target, next GCD eviscerate that target, pop killing spree on all. While that isn't as likely to get a kill shot on my one target due to spending 3 GCD instead of two, it will put some massive pressure on the whole team before my first vanish, maybe enough to force mass trinkets usage to escape the 5 second cheap shot. After vanish I will still have my AR, shadow blades, and I have not yet used MfD which means shuriken toss may be an option (I think 5x ST will out massive pressure on a target when rooted).

    All this sounds complicated, but it should be easy to pull off with macros and multiboxing. The nice part is that if they're grouped up then blade flurry will tear them a new one. If they're spread out then those targets that killing spree is hitting will be under enormous pressure.

    I'm not sold on sub or combat, but it's nice to know there are options. If I could just figure out how to avoid flare then I'd be in good shape. Those three seconds from subterfuge are vital and my mobility with C&D relies on it. If a hunter is on their team I may be forced to go sub for shadow walk/C&D.

  14. #14
    Well... my experiment won't be tested unless Blizzard restores the /follow command to BGs and arenas. Otherwise, on to different hobbies. WoW doesn't hold my interest as a solo player, so I'll take my $75 a month elsewhere. Too bad as I was really looking forward to making movies and streaming.

  15. #15
    Open like this

    Cheap shot - Garrote - Ambush - Eviscerate - Marked for death - Eviscerate

    Using Subterfuge, Prey on the Weak, all your procs in the open. Cloak and Dagger. You will be bringing pretty much unstoppable damage in the opener.
    Want Rogue Gameplay? Subtlety/Assassination Guides? 2v2 3v3 and 1v1 strategies?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/SusejFTW

    Also SCP Containment Breach, Guild Wars 2, and Diablo 3!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Susej View Post
    Open like this
    Quote Originally Posted by Owltoid View Post
    Well... my experiment won't be tested unless Blizzard restores the /follow command to BGs and arenas. Otherwise, on to different hobbies. WoW doesn't hold my interest as a solo player, so I'll take my $75 a month elsewhere. Too bad as I was really looking forward to making movies and streaming.
    Pretty sure the OP is on hold indefinitely at this point.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Pretty sure the OP is on hold indefinitely at this point.
    Ouch... What a downer. I dont mind Multi boxers at all, the people who Multi box do it out of their own pocket, for fun. That's just a Fun killer for those guys man =(
    Want Rogue Gameplay? Subtlety/Assassination Guides? 2v2 3v3 and 1v1 strategies?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/SusejFTW

    Also SCP Containment Breach, Guild Wars 2, and Diablo 3!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Owltoid View Post
    Well... my experiment won't be tested unless Blizzard restores the /follow command to BGs and arenas. Otherwise, on to different hobbies. WoW doesn't hold my interest as a solo player, so I'll take my $75 a month elsewhere. Too bad as I was really looking forward to making movies and streaming.
    There may yet be hope!

    "Right now /follow is also disabled in Arenas, but we’re looking to revert that change as bots don’t typically exist in Arenas, and multiboxing in that kind of pre-determined group environment doesn’t tend to be as disruptive."
    Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...775?page=6#104

    Also on topic: http://www.thedailyblink.com/2013/03...d-well-follow/

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    There may yet be hope!

    "Right now /follow is also disabled in Arenas, but we’re looking to revert that change as bots don’t typically exist in Arenas, and multiboxing in that kind of pre-determined group environment doesn’t tend to be as disruptive."
    Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...775?page=6#104

    Also on topic: http://www.thedailyblink.com/2013/03...d-well-follow/
    If they reinstated follow for arenas and RBGs, then I'd consider continuing to play. The biggest issue is of course missing the fun that comes with random BGs, which in the past was my primary reason for playing. However, this rogue team was built to be an arena team and I could continue down that path. Since they still need to gear up, it would essentially mean farming JP and converting to HP. That's certainly something I can do, but it will take awhile, especially since I could only take three rogues at a time (I'll have to run a healer and tank with them, which I do have an can do). Unfortunately, the only way I could get CP would be through arena wins, which may be extremely difficult until I get better gear (vicious cycle).

    I'd appreciate some thoughts from the community. I called and cancelled my accounts last night, but that was before I remembered I could farm PvE for JP and convert to HP. Would the community be interested in watching a stream that had multiboxing rogues from both a PvE perspective and arena (eventually)?

  20. #20
    I'd watch it.

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