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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    They would have to give us a 70% snare, bonus crit to backstab, and better damage coefficients to our builders for us to do good(or)decent damage outside cooldowns.

    Elusiveness should be part of recuperate, not feint.
    Pretty sure they did all that in Cata... and we had it taken away. Improved recuperate was 6% I think, so feint is more used to counter burst than 6% over 25ish seconds. Recup got a little out of hand in Cata I think. It ticked for quite a bit and you could spam it with premed in stealth. Improved recup and fleet footed (thats the +20%heal one I believe) were a bit too amazing.

    In 4.3 our damage was a bit too amazing, but we all knew it would go down a ton when we hit 90 and get the relatively low scaled gear, because it is how rogues work. We do mid-low pack to start an xpac and grow from there to high pack at the end. We scale extremely well with gear.
    Why is there no "Demonhunter" hero class yet? He was only the coolest hero in WC3. Get busy Blizzard.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgustipated View Post
    Unless he actually plays a rogue, which he most probably does not, his theories doesn't hold that much weight.
    He has access to all kinds of data about the game. He's not just making an ass pull here, and this is a silly confirmation bias reason to dismiss his opinion.

    Personally I think he's absolutely right. Almost every time I would hear someone talk about why they like playing their rogue is because they could gank people.

  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    Pretty sure they did all that in Cata... and we had it taken away. Improved recuperate was 6% I think, so feint is more used to counter burst than 6% over 25ish seconds. Recup got a little out of hand in Cata I think. It ticked for quite a bit and you could spam it with premed in stealth. Improved recup and fleet footed (thats the +20%heal one I believe) were a bit too amazing.

    In 4.3 our damage was a bit too amazing, but we all knew it would go down a ton when we hit 90 and get the relatively low scaled gear, because it is how rogues work. We do mid-low pack to start an xpac and grow from there to high pack at the end. We scale extremely well with gear.
    I didn't play in 4.3, but I heard rogues were stupidly OP.

    Recuperate with all of those bonuses would be fine in the current meta. (think battle fatigue)

    Rogues will be over the top in 5.2, and it's unfortunate because they are making the wrong changes. Cloak and Dagger is just absurd.

    imo:
    -Shadowstep needs to remove snares +shorter cooldown (20 second CD with 2 charges like the warrior talent Double Time would be perfect)
    -Cheat Death needs to be 100%
    -Sprint needs to grant freedom to not reduce us below 100% normal movement speed
    -Recuperate needs to heal 5% per tick
    -Damage needs to be allocated in abilities like backstab (not evisc)
    -Dirty Tricks needs to be baseline
    -Deadly Throw needs to be baseline
    -Shadowstep needs to be baseline
    The above instead of the 5.2 changes along with some graphical flare would solve rogue population issues, and gameplay issues without overbuffing.
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  4. #104
    Ghostcrawler making excuses again.

    Rogues are unpopular because they are a terrible class. For a great many people anyway.

    5.2 won't change that much to be honest. Unless you like a terrible class that's really viable. I'm sure some of you do.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    If you look at vanilla->burning crusade era...

    Melee dps choices were warrior, rogue, badhancement, loltribution, feral druid.

    Now I never saw a feral dps druid in those days, and badhancement/loltribution were pretty weak.

    Needless to say your options for melee dps were pretty limited and there were tons of rogues.

    Now?

    Warrior, rogue, enhancement, retribution, feral cat, Deathknight, Windwalker monk.

    Of those, 5 have tank trees... 4 have healer trees... 2 have ranged trees.

    My guess is the singular role of the rogue is what killed people playing them, I know it was the case with me.
    Kinda true i guess, biggest problem with rogues is that they are a purely melee class with no other roles than DPS while melee dps tends to be unwanted in both raiding and RBGs.

  6. #106
    Stood in the Fire zanexlol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    He has access to all kinds of data about the game. He's not just making an ass pull here, and this is a silly confirmation bias reason to dismiss his opinion.

    Personally I think he's absolutely right. Almost every time I would hear someone talk about why they like playing their rogue is because they could gank people.
    He's absolutely making an ass pull here. If you can't see why, then too bad.

    Info doesn't equal experience or, in this case, relevant insight.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post

    The above instead of the 5.2 changes along with some graphical flare would solve rogue population issues, and gameplay issues without overbuffing.
    Only pvp changes? No thx. PvP is dead.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Only pvp changes? No thx. PvP is dead.
    It doesn't have to be. Besides, I can only offer constructive criticism in regards to PvP because I haven't PvE'd since Ulduar.
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Rogues are unpopular because they are a terrible class. For a great many people anyway.
    This sums it up nicely. Every other class gets new and actually USEFUL abilities and rogues don't seem to get anything worthwhile in return. Even if they do get something useful it gets nerfed. Couple that with the fact rogue is a snooze fest to play in raids does not help the cause.

  10. #110
    the basis of the rogue class (in vanilla/bc/somewhat in wrath) was that you can kill anyone 1v1 in the world without any doubt. it has nothing to do with other classes being capable of the same.

    he said it that way, because the gank -> 100% kill was a "signature move" of rogues and now its more or less gone.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgustipated View Post
    He's absolutely making an ass pull here. If you can't see why, then too bad.

    Info doesn't equal experience or, in this case, relevant insight.
    Yes, it does. He has the data of how many people play rogues and how that number has changed and what changes were made at any relevant points along that graph. You also have no basis for saying he doesn't play a rogue. Everything you have to say on the matter is just presumption and confirmation bias.

  12. #112
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    @ Speaknoevil, I would love for them to make shadowstep baseline and then just copy the warrior's mobility tier of talents. And what do you mean "Cheat Death needs to be100%"? 100% damage reduction every time it activates? That seems a bit much considering its fairly short CD. Also, 5% per recup tick would be a bit much with premed + recup.

    I played very little on my rogue in vanilla, but us being a gank class seemed fair. Aside from sprint, did we have a gap closer in vanilla? And remember that in vanilla, our stealth slowed us down, not like today where it gives movespeed.
    Why is there no "Demonhunter" hero class yet? He was only the coolest hero in WC3. Get busy Blizzard.

  13. #113
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I still think there is to much build up to doing enough damage in pvp. There damage is fine in pvp but the build up to get that damage is to much. If we didn't need S&D our damage off the mark would be alot better. S&D should be combat only. The other 2 specs should be made to work without it.

    Oh and other people have said. If i see a warrior i don't even bother. It will just end up in my death.

    Also i still believe combo points should stack on the rogue not on the target. Other mmo's have there combo points stack on the rogue and its so much nicer.
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  14. #114
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    @ Speaknoevil, I would love for them to make shadowstep baseline and then just copy the warrior's mobility tier of talents. And what do you mean "Cheat Death needs to be100%"? 100% damage reduction every time it activates? That seems a bit much considering its fairly short CD. Also, 5% per recup tick would be a bit much with premed + recup.

    I played very little on my rogue in vanilla, but us being a gank class seemed fair. Aside from sprint, did we have a gap closer in vanilla? And remember that in vanilla, our stealth slowed us down, not like today where it gives movespeed.
    Rogues get killed through cheat death constantly, it often procs when under the buffer marker so it doesn't save you.

    Recup gets reduced 35% from battle fatigue, so it would be % equivalent of untalented cata recup.
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  15. #115
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    See idk, there are tons of valid points in here, but...

    It's all in how well you know your class, how well you know the other classes you are up against, and how well you combine your moves and pick talents

    someone said stun lock was dead for example, I was running an EOTS on my warrior today (Yes... a warrior), sitting at FR alone, happy as a clam... out of nowhere came a damn Gnome Rogue, Cheapshotted me, hit me with a 5 point kidney (yeah diminishing returns kind of pushed it down BUT) his paralytic poison caught me for another 4 seconds... so between said stuns was about 11 seconds of not being able to do a thing.. albeit I did not have my freedom trinket, but even then he could have easily blinded me to a sap, and started all over without the DR... so saying Stun-locking is dead is just inaccurate. Needless to say I wound up dead without even being able to get off a swing.

    I started my rogue back in Wrath, didn't know a damn thing about stun-locking, or even what to open with... but I was still pushed forward do to the fact that deep down in my heart, I looooove being able to sneak around, choose my target wisely, and be faced with a legit challenge. I have come a long way since the days of not putting poisons on my daggers.... and to this day I still love my rogue. So... even if our class is being walked upon or even misunderstood, if you take the time to learn and adjust to said changes, you will excel...

    That is all
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    Also, 5% per recup tick would be a bit much with premed + recup.
    You know that it would take about 7% ticks for recup to heal what it did in cata fully talented because of battle fatigue right?

    cata fully talented 4.8%
    5.2 glyphed = 4.5%
    5.2 glyphed + battle fatigue = 3.15%
    5.2 unglyphed + battle fatigue = 2.8%
    3% (live recup) + battle fatigue = 2.1%

    5% + battle fatigue = 3.5%
    7% + battle fatigue = 4.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    And what do you mean "Cheat Death needs to be100%"? 100% damage reduction every time it activates?
    Cheat death is the only "cheat death" ability that doesn't actually cheat death lol. Its more or less its an animation for you dying and doesn't cheat anything. Purgatory you can not die for those 3 secs, Cauterize you won't die for 2-3secs, cheat death you normally die as it procs lol.

  17. #117
    It's true, Rogues have been master gankers for a long time and it's historically been one of their perks. Removing that is removing a lot of flavor from the class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 07:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Cheat death is the only "cheat death" ability that doesn't actually cheat death lol. Its more or less its an animation for you dying and doesn't cheat anything. Purgatory you can not die for those 3 secs, Cauterize you won't die for 2-3secs, cheat death you normally die as it procs lol.
    Rogues have enough escape mechanics to make me uneasy with the prospect of giving them a more powerful Cheat Death.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    They would have to give us a 70% snare, bonus crit to backstab, and better damage coefficients to our builders for us to do good(or)decent damage outside cooldowns.

    Elusiveness should be part of recuperate, not feint.
    Quoted for truth.
    I completely agree with you.

  19. #119
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    I played a rogue and only a rogue for 6 years. My affinity for the class had nothing to do with insta-ganks; I loved the class' stealth, flavor, and design. I enjoyed the "assassin" class and everything that came with it. There were good times in pvp and a few bad times, but no matter where we stood I always played my rogue exclusively. The reason I quit at the end of Cata is because I had become tired of being funneled into Combat for PVE, and MoP looked like crap for rogues.

    I happen to be one of the rogues who thinks 9 seconds of stuns were not fun for anyone.
    Last edited by Letmesleep; 2013-03-03 at 10:59 AM.

  20. #120
    It's completely true.

    Everyone I've ever known that has played rogue did it just to be able to gank people and get a instant Kill. Hell even right up until the end of Wotlk on my Rogue if I got the drop on someone without a pvp trinket on it was guaranteed win.

    Funnily enough all my friends that played rogues switched in Cata since they could no longer get free kills.

    what I WANT them to do to rogues is remove Vanish, since it seems every fucking rogue these days that does try to gank, if you turn around and start beating them to a pulp they just act like little pussy and vanish->flying mount.
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